April 14, 2022

Who’s Actually Calling the Shots in the Beauty Industry

Plus: Kulfi Beauty founder Priyanka Ganjoo

Nora and Scott discuss diversity and leadership in the beauty industry with Priyanka Ganjoo, founder and CEO of Kulfi Beauty, about why she created Kulfi Beauty, and how the brand is leading a wave of change in the industry. Then, we'll hear from Allison Collins, senior beauty editor at WWD, about why there aren’t more women leaders in the beauty industry, and what that ultimately means for products and consumers. 

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

Director of Audio: Alan Haburchak

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

Full transcript for this episode available below. 


Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual. The podcast that reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: Okay. Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: Yo.

Nora Ali: Your favorite topic.

Scott Rogowsky: Love it.

Nora Ali: We shouldn't joke about that though because you actually do have to wear makeup sometimes for your job.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. Sometimes.

Nora Ali: Right. Sometimes, yeah?

Scott Rogowsky: It's been a while since I've been on a set, but shout out to Stella, makeup artist on HQ, all those years ago who made me look so good.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: I didn't know what she was using, but it worked. I kept telling her to make me look tan because I was back in New York at the time, Nora.

Nora Ali: Okay.

Scott Rogowsky: I didn't get the sunny sunshine here in LA and I was very pale. I'm a very pale boy normally. So I like to look bronzed on camera.

Nora Ali: You like the bronze.

Scott Rogowsky: But yeah, I don't know what she was using, but it turns out whatever she was using was likely from a company that is likely run by a white man.

Nora Ali: While you're trying to get tanned and here I've been for most of my life trying to find makeup products that are suited for my skin tone. And only recently have we seen so many of these companies now pop up for women of color, people of color, made by people of color for people of color, so I think it's so wonderful, all of these smaller companies that are cropping up now. And makeup is such a big part of South Asian culture. I'm South Asian, as you know, and I've been wearing eyeliner since I was maybe 11 or 12 years old. You can see I have my winged eyeliner on right now.

Scott Rogowsky: I love it.

Nora Ali: I wear it every day. All the women in my family basically wear eyeliner. It's celebrated. It's fun. And I love it.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah.

Nora Ali: And now, I'm so much more intentional about who I'm giving my dollars to when I'm buying makeup and I hope our listeners will take that away as well in this episode, as you can help support these founders who are historically excluded because they're making products for us finally.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Hooray.

Scott Rogowsky: Vote with your dollar.

Nora Ali: Vote with your dollar. Yes. So let's get to it. We had a couple of really awesome conversations for this episode. We're talking about leadership and diversity in the beauty industry. And first up, we're speaking with Priyanka Ganjoo. She's the founder and CEO of Kulfi Beauty, which is a makeup brand that celebrates South Asian beauty. We're going to hear all about her experiences as a founder in an industry that has, for decades, excluded women of color, maybe for all of time. Then we're talking to Allison Collins, the senior beauty editor at Women's Wear Daily, about her reporting on the lack of women leadership in the beauty industry and what that ultimately means for products and consumers. Our conversations with Priyanka and Allison are coming up after this quick break. So, Priyanka, let's jump right in. You have said that your mission with Kulfi and within the beauty industry broadly is about more than launching eyeliners, it's about changing how people feel. And let's start with your personal story. How did the beauty industry in New Delhi, where you grew up, make you feel about yourself and your relationship with beauty?

Priyanka Ganjoo: It's wild that I'm starting this beauty brand because growing up in Delhi and even up to my twenties, I never really wore makeup. I never felt beautiful and I always thought that I didn't even have permission to participate in beauty. And I think the reason why is because throughout the world, we are every day bombarded with beauty standards that don't look anything like me. We have a very Eurocentric view of beauty in the industry right now, whether that's in the US or in India, where I grew up in Delhi. And those things kept me away from even feeling like I belonged. It always felt like there was this model around beauty that I wasn't really allowed to broach or kind of cross. In my twenties when I started actually working in the beauty industry and kind of playing around with makeup by myself and playing around with beauty with myself, that I realized that it can be so much more. It can be so powerful. It can be a way to express yourself. And that realization is really what led me to then start Kulfi, because that was, I felt, missing in the beauty industry, this idea that makeup, it's for you. It's for you to really express yourself and own your identity.

Scott Rogowsky: Priyanka, you talked about growing up in South Asia where the patriarchy determined the beauty standard, but then you said, if you wore makeup, a male friend would say, "Oh, you look so much better without makeup. Why are you wearing makeup? You shouldn't be drawing attention to yourself with the makeup." And that totally blew my mind. It seems counterintuitive. Is this something that's a uniquely South Asian experience?

Priyanka Ganjoo: It's definitely a very personal experience for me and definitely in South Asian culture. What the patriarchy, what the male members of the family or the community have to say matters and gets talked about a lot. But I agree. I think as we've kind of talked about our mission, so many people across ethnicities, cultures have come up to me and said, I felt the same. And so it's not unique because I think there is this inherent notion that when we're putting on makeup, we're putting on red lipstick, we're doing it for men, for someone else, where it's really I think not their place to come and say whether they like it or they don't like it. It's much more of like what I want to do with my body. Growing up, that was my experience, and so I was like, I stayed away from makeup. And then in my first job, we had a training in which I was told that to look more professional, I needed to wear makeup because I had dark circles, which are genetic again for South Asians, and people would tell me I look tired all the time. I needed to look more put together. And that was really shocking to me because now my relationship with makeup became about now I have to cover up my flaws, cover up my blemishes, cover up all the things that are wrong with me because I don't look professional enough. And so, I walk into the first beauty makeup counter ever and they tell me your nose is too big, you need to fix this, you need to make your lips look bigger. And they sell me all of these beauty products and I walk out feeling just worse than I ever did in my life. And that also is not a unique experience. It's very universal. So it blows my mind too like how the beauty industry has really grown and survived and thrived by selling us-

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Priyanka Ganjoo:... our insecurities.

Nora Ali: And that's what's so great about Kulfi. It's about self expression and embracing who you are instead of trying to change it or alter it. But you've had extensive experience in the beauty industry at these so called older school companies like Estée Lauder, for example. You worked for the retail strategy team in 2014, you then moved to merchandising at Ipsy. How did your experience working at these companies shape your perspective and perception of the beauty industry?

Priyanka Ganjoo: I think one of the biggest aha moments for me was realizing whether it was at Estée Lauder or at Ipsy, how emotional beauty is. It's really about, like, Nora, what you said in the beginning, like how it makes someone feel. And that was like the aha moment I got once I interacted with consumers through these professional experiences I had and realized that it's not just me. It's not just me who's feeling a certain way when I put on beauty or like look at a certain image of what is considered beautiful. It's an industry that has this deep impact on our everyday lives, on how we feel when we wake up. And I think that was really like the connection I had saying, okay, I'm working for these brands, they're great, whether it's Estée Lauder or Ipsy, we're working with beautiful brands, but I never saw myself in them. And in a way, I'm complicit in not changing that landscape. I'm waiting for someone else to show it to me, show me a different ideal or show me a different version of beauty. And by not making that change myself, I'm being complicit and that's really what drove me to then be like, you know what, I'm going to try to do this myself.

Scott Rogowsky: I was surprised to learn that really you are a pioneer in this space and you've only just started it a few years ago, when there are a billion Southeast Asian women out there probably, or right now more. It's a huge, huge market that hadn't been served, up until you came along to say, we need to serve women who have my skin tone.

Priyanka Ganjoo: Honestly, it's been a hard journey to even make my case. You would think that I would say, like, there's more than a billion of us who are out there looking for this. This is an obvious gap. And when I went to investors, when I went to industry executives to pitch my company before we had started or like in the early days, they came back and told me, South Asian beauty is not aspirational or it's not a big enough market and I'm like, this is not computing.

Nora Ali: Hello.

Priyanka Ganjoo: This is not computing. And they would say things like don't use deeper skin tone models because they're not as commercial. And so there are real barriers to why this hasn't been addressed before. I'm sure many, many before me have had the same idea, but running up against these barriers, which are real, tangible, financial roadblocks, roadblocks that retailers have. They're gatekeepers of what you get to see, what you get to pick up, and if the retailers doesn't believe that there's a space for you, there's a space for a brand like yours, that your community deserves to walk into a store and see someone like you in the store, you're not going to make that progress. What's been encouraging though, is just even in the past 18 months, there has been a wave of new brands that are addressing this and I think that's what we need. We need to showcase that there are so many ways, so many identities we can have as South Asian people. It isn't like a one brand solution to everyone, that's a false premise as well. It is this whole community that needs to find themselves and see themselves in beauty and feel involved, feel ownership to create their own path.

Nora Ali: And some of those barriers perhaps include those who have sort of controlled the beauty industry historically. At Estée Lauder where you worked, I was looking this up, the CEO is named Fabrizio Freda, who's a 64-year-old Italian businessman and the executive chairman is named William P. Lauder, not your typical traditional makeup customer, I would say. But later in this episode, we are talking about the lack of women in leadership in the beauty industry at the highest levels and what is being done to change that. To what extent do you think leadership and who controls the industry when maybe there aren't enough people like you, Priyanka, what impact does this have on the products and how they're marketed?

Priyanka Ganjoo: It impacts every single aspect. Because I think one of the things you think about, and I naively thought, is that if I leave these companies and start my own, it's going to be easier because I will not have those typical roadblocks. When you have product development, you're always looking at, like, consumer testing. You're looking at, what are the skin tones we're designing for when you're in merchandising? So I was in merchandising at Ipsy where my job was selecting brands and products to put in our bag. We're looking at data, we're looking at analytics, and we're looking at oh, 90% of our population is well served by the existing brands because they are white and so we know that they're well served. Do we want to fix something that's not broken in a way, because the 10% isn't being well served? But the 10% matters, and making those changes within the companies is hard. It's an uphill battle of like trying to get alignment in meetings, which I'm sure in your corporate lives, you've kind of felt that. And so I thought, hey, I'm not the going to have any of those barriers. I'm going to go in, be the decision maker, and make these changes. But then you run up against, like I said, these barriers of who's controlling the money, who are the LPs, who are the VCs, who have the money that is coming into the beauty industry and it's, again, the same demographic that's controlling the money that's going into the startups that are changing the beauty landscape. And so, it's from the top all the way down to how decisions get made day-to-day and what gets put on a shelf.

Nora Ali: And you've talked about this disconnect between the consumer and their need, and then the perception of these investors who might not truly understand how big the market is or how important the market is. When you go out and pitch to investors for your products, what is your process there? Because I've heard from lots of women founders and BIPOC founders that it's very difficult when those that they're pitching to are just not in the demo that they're going after.

Priyanka Ganjoo: It is very difficult when it's not very easy to convince someone. What I found in my experience, the investors, we ended up doing a friends and family round, an angel round, that's the funding we've had so far. Everyone who came in was someone who believed in me, who already came to the table believing in the value of this company, believing in our mission, believing that we were here to change things. There were a lot of investors who led me on and be like, can you give me this document, can you pull this data. They never made that check, because I think one thing investors say when they're investing is like, we look for pattern recognition, patterns of success. But as an immigrant, woman of color, we don't fit into any of those patterns. And so, they're looking at me and feeling like, you know what, this isn't really what we invest in. There're so many other opportunities, why should I go and make this exception and invest in this person? And so it's in a way that discouraging news that the majority of the industry isn't ready to invest in you, but the good thing is that I was able to find those gems, those people who believe in our mission and it makes my life easier because now, as I'm making decisions, they're on board. I don't have to explain every single decision to them.

Scott Rogowsky: I'd like to talk about your marketing methods for a moment, because you really have some amazing people on your TikTok, your social media, who show off your products as part of something called Kulfi Bites. Can you talk about these Kulfi Bites and how you're building a community through sharing, not just your own story, but the stories of other South Asian women?

Priyanka Ganjoo: Kulfi Bites is really the heart of what we're doing. Like I said, I want to create a platform, of course products, but a platform for us to share our stories, for us to be the main characters, which we rarely were. And so Kulfi Bites started out as our blog, which is on our site and through that, we were able to build a community of voluntary contributors who came in and shared really personal stories about themselves, whether it was about beauty or wellness or career and evolution of that is now on TikTok. Just really creating a community around who we are as people and as people who are diverse. There is no single person who can define it. That to me is really central to our mission. It's really encouraging self-expression because we didn't see ourselves in media growing up. If I were to say my secret sauce, my secret sauce is just finding amazing people and getting the hell out of the way because they know what they're doing.

Nora Ali: It makes it more fun to go to work every day to find the right people. All right. Let's take a very quick break; more with Priyanka when we return. Priyanka, we have been so absorbed in your personal story and the mission of Kulfi to encourage self-expression, that we haven't even gotten to the products themselves in detail. Bring us to day one when you were figuring out what you wanted to actually create through Kulfi Beauty and how you ultimately landed on these beautifully pigmented eyeliners, or a version of Kajal, which is traditional eye makeup. And by the way, these are amazing eyeliners.

Priyanka Ganjoo: Thank you so much. Actually, when I left my job, the first thing I wanted to create was a very personal need, which was concealer because I mentioned my under eye dark circles, which also a lot of South Asians have. And I had a very complicated routine with a color corrector, with a concealer, with a powder, like I had like five products that I was using to diminish the appearance of dark circles. But then I went and started doing customer research, which was literally me in like a Facebook group being like, 'Hey, I'm building a beauty brand, anyone wants to chat with me?" And so in coffee shops in New York, I'm just talking to people, asking them about their beauty routines. And one thing that kept coming up again and again with a lot of Brown women was how they have a kajal, someone bought it from India or like their mom used it. It's there, but they're kind of like not excited about it. Nobody has reinvented it or reimagined it for our generation. That's when it struck me. I was like, yes, kajal was the first beauty product I stole from my mom's vanity and so there's that deep, personal connection that many of us who are South Asian have with kajal. It was a product that was made in our kitchens just like burning almond and using that soot to line our eyes and accentuate eyes. And I was like, this is the product we need to launch with because it just really connects with our personal stories in such a beautiful way and that's what led to Kulfi's underlying kajal.

Nora Ali: So cool. And then all the colors, how did that come to be? Because kajal is black, but you have blues, you have berries, you have these beautiful pigmented colors, how did you come up with those?

Priyanka Ganjoo: For me again, it was thinking about, how do we reimagine this? And when I think about reimagining and think about self-expression, to me the bold colors we have in our wardrobe, just come to mind to me. And so a lot of the colors are inspired by South Asian textiles, like the teal, the berry. It's something that you would find in our wardrobes, in our moms' Sari closet. And I wanted to bring that into the product itself. We did, in addition, do again a lot of user testing. So one thing that I feel like and why our product development roadmap is very long. Unlike the fast-fashion landscape of beauty these days is because everything that we're building, we're going back-and-forth with the consumer and really getting their point of view on it because we wanted to create shades that would truly flatter and compliment our undertones and skin tones. And so it's a mix of colors that people haven't seen before in an eyeliner and that's something I'm really very proud of.

Nora Ali: We're going to take another quick break. When we come back, we'll speak with Allison Collins, senior editor at Women's Wear Daily, and we'll come back to Priyanka later on for the quiz. Allison, let's start with some of the stats in your reporting on leadership in the beauty industry. You reported that, of the top 20 beauty manufacturers, only 15% are led by women. None are led by women of color and a lot of the larger brands like L'Oreal and Estée Lauder put resources into campaigns that talk about women's empowerment and drawing consumers in using that sort of angle. Do you get a sense that the average consumer is even aware of who's at the top of these companies and do they care?

Allison Collins: I actually think today's consumer is becoming more and more aware. I think, especially with younger generations, millennials and Gen Z, people are really looking into the companies that they're spending their money with. They want to know like, basically, are you good? Are you doing good stuff? Or are you bad and doing bad stuff? And there's a lot of research that goes into purchases that didn't happen with prior generations, so I do think ultimately it does matter and people will see it. And I think the beauty companies are starting to understand that and are starting to think about succession planning, think about how they can make the inside of the company look a little bit more like the end consumer.

Nora Ali: You reported that a lot of these men in leadership positions have been there for a long time and are going to be there for a long time. There are some mandatory requirements to retire at age 65 for some of these companies, for example, but does this generally slow down progress because a lot of these leaders have been and will be at the helm for so long?

Allison Collins: It definitely slows things down. L'Oreal, which is the world's biggest beauty company, they do more than $30 billion in sales annually. It's massive. They appointed a new CEO recently and he's in his fifties and so he will very likely be holding that job until he's told to retire at 65. They're in France. Those are the L'Oreal rules. It happened at the last white guy in that job too. So that's like many more years that that big beauty company will be helmed by a white man. And I think when that happens, it does slow down progress from a corporate perspective. I understand that like a lot of these companies are public. If a CEO is producing results, I don't think that the companies are like, you know, what we should do is like definitely replace him and put somebody else in there.

Scott Rogowsky: Right.

Allison Collins: But I think that pressure comes from Wall Street and from investors and I think it does slow down the rate of progress because if there's no turnover, there's not so much opportunity for other people to be promoted into those roles.

Scott Rogowsky: Right. But turnover can shake things up and affect the bottom line, actually. It can affect share price and create instability. You do note that this 15% figure of the top 20 beauty companies does represent some progress from even just a few years ago, when only one of the top 20 beauty manufacturers was run by a woman. And I guess that's something to celebrate, but these conversations have only really been happening recently about representation, so do you feel hopeful that, in another 10 years, this could be potentially close to half of the companies or at least some more parity here?

Allison Collins: I do feel hopeful and skeptical at the same time. When I first started reporting on women, specifically in the C-suite, it was 2018 and in the top 20 there was only one woman running a beauty company. So those numbers are horrendous. And so, I guess last time I did it, they were slightly less horrendous. I actually looked at them again in preparation to come speak with you guys, and they were a little bit less bad in May of this year. The CEO of Bath & Body Works will be stepping down and an interim CEO will be stepping in, who's a woman.That will mean that as of May, there will be five of the top 20 beauty companies run by a woman CEO.

Scott Rogowsky: Okay.

Allison Collins: So there are little sights of progress. I think one of the things that's happening and that's important for companies to do as they try to rectify this problem is broadening the aperture a little bit. It's looking at candidates for jobs who you may not have normally looked at before. Maybe they don't come from a beauty background. Maybe they come from another industry. There was a company I reported on recently, and they hired a CEO who had been running a big division at PlayStation, and she's a woman of color. And when you open up the pool a little bit more and you start to consider new types of people, not only are you more likely to bring in more women and more people of color, but I think you're also likely to bring in people with different types of experiences. And I think in an industry like beauty, that touches people in so many different ways, that can be a really valuable thing to do.

Nora Ali: I think we're seeing that more and more across industries where there's this appetite for people maybe without the prerequisite backgrounds for a particular role, but you can apply skills and knowledge from outside industries to your particular leadership position, so I think that's really interesting that you point that out. Now, as part of this episode, we also spoke to Priyanka Ganjoo, who is the founder of Kulfi Beauty, which is sort of catered towards South Asian women, just people of color who are look for pigmented and beautiful eyeliners and makeup products. We're seeing so many more of these kinds of companies where it's for women of color by women of color or these more niche demographics. Do you think we're seeing a little bit of a change in interest from consumers or a change in the tides, where you pointed out that consumers are a little bit more discerning now about who is in charge of these companies, where they're seeking out those kinds of companies and maybe eventually moving away from those larger conglomerates, like the L'Oreals and Estée Lauders of the world?

Allison Collins: I think there's a lot of things going on that are causing this shift. I think one of them is the democratization of beauty. You used to have to have a lot of money, launch with a lot of products, and launch in retail to launch a brand. And that really limited the amount of people who could, like, line up all of those things in order to do that. Now to launch a brand, you need an idea and you need to formulate it, and maybe you need Instagram. That's basically it, so a lot of people have been able to launch new things. And I think that there was this massive, pent-up demand from customers who hadn't been thought of before, who hadn't really had shades that went with their skin tone or hadn't really even been pictured in marketing materials in a way that actually resonated versus like, there's this thing the beauty industry does where they're kind of like, put one of everybody in a marketing campaign. They're like, look, we did it but that doesn't necessarily resonate with people who are trying to buy these products. people can see through that type of thing and I think the emergence of some of these companies like run by women who wanted those products, they're able to do a really good job of being like, here's what I wanted, I'm making it. Do you want it too? Amazing. And I do think that they're taking share away because they're resonating more thoroughly with their consumers.

Scott Rogowsky: We talked about it with Priyanka, how in an indie startup beauty company like hers, she is at the center of the story. So when we're hearing about her story, it's very much about Priyanka, whereas with a L'Oreal or Unilever, you don't know what the CEO's story is or how they're involved. A lot of it is part of the corporatization and you kind of lose that story, that touch. I mean, Estée Lauder, she was a real woman, Estée Lauder, at some point, but now it's beyond just her story. Is that a part of it too? Just aging and becoming a legacy company?

Allison Collins: I think the other thing for indie brands who are started by women now, is that the way you get to being that big is by engaging with a lot of other things that are still run by white men. So like if you have a $20 million beauty company that you started and you want to make it a hundred million beauty company, one of the ways to do that is to take in some private equity money. The private equity firms are still mostly run by white dudes and sometimes, when people do that, private equity people are like, it's nice that you got this company to be 10 or 20 million dollars, but we don't think that you, female CEO, have the skillset to get it to a hundred million. We want to replace you, usually with a white man CEO, who will be in charge of getting it to that scale. So that's one of the ways that women sometimes get sidelined even from their own businesses, as they're trying to scale them up.

Nora Ali: Wow.

Scott Rogowsky: It's a little patronizing. Oh, good job. You got it started, let us take over now. Let the big boys take over.

Allison Collins: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Oh my goodness. They get pushed out because there's still a doubt in their skills to scale these companies to hundreds of millions of dollars. That makes me sad, but systemic issues. So companies like Estée Lauder, though, are making promises. They're trying to make changes and adjust their approach to inclusion in their ranks. So they've made plans to increase representation and equity for women throughout their company by 2025 and even close their gender pay gap from 2023 onwards. What are some of the tools that Estée Lauder is using and do you feel like they're sort of leading the charge on this front for big beauty conglomerates?

Allison Collins: I think that they're trying to. I think that when it comes to big beauty conglomerates, leading charges like this is not necessarily an area where people thrive. I do think they're trying and they're figuring out ways to listen more to their employees and try to promote within and make sure women's careers are supported, but I also think when you're in a big giant company, doing that takes a lot longer than if you are in a startup and you're just in charge of making sure it's there in the first place.

Nora Ali: Is it because you have to sort of escalate this to the highest levels and get the signoff, the green-lighting and approval, versus, just being able to make decisions team by team?

Allison Collins: There's a lot of bureaucracy in these big companies. There is a lot of layers of approval that you need to get something done. But I also think there's a historical way things have been done and some of the people in charge are like, it's been working, we're making money, why do we deviate? Versus being like, oh, we need to push forward and do it so we're not behind.

Scott Rogowsky: There's something else I want to ask about that you highlight in your coverage is when it comes to women and gender parity in the beauty industry, there's this Goldilocks syndrome you write about, there's also stigmas around maternity leave. Can you discuss how those impact women in the industry?

Allison Collins: Yeah. The maternity leave thing is a big deal because if people are not equally taking parental leave, though, they are equally having children together, often, it doesn't leave people with the same set of opportunities. And I think it's as simple as that. It should be parental leave. It should be equal and people should be like, oh, this couple, or this person is having a child and the offer for that is three months of paid leave, six months of paid leave. It should be more like that. The other thing with the Goldilocks syndrome is that women are seen as people who should be in these types of roles, where they care about other people. Where they're like nurturing and doing things like HR or things where they're not necessarily in charge of the money. To get to the CEO seat, you need to be in charge of the money. Like you need be in charge of the P&L, you need to be making sure that, like, your divisions are making money and you've proven yourself that you can do that in order for someone to be like, you know what, you're the next CEO of L'Oreal. Congratulations, you've had success that we, the board, who are beholden to Wall Street, can see on the paper. And if women are stuck in like, HR, communications, those types of jobs, they're never going to get those opportunities.

Nora Ali: Allison, what do you think is going to be the biggest factor that does actually impact change here when it comes to the landscape of leadership for big beauty companies? If you had to place your bet on something, what's going to be the biggest contributor?

Allison Collins: I think it will be like a trickle effect. I think today's consumers care a lot about this type of thing and they care a lot about the authenticity of the place where they spend their money. I think gradually, this will trickle through the entire ecosystem, I just am annoyed that it's taking so long. So it starts with the consumer. The consumer cares. The company knows it needs to care. Usually the last people who understand this are the financial people, but eventually they'll start to understand, too, because if the consumer stops spending their money with these companies who haven't made the changes, the financial people will have to care, because the money's going somewhere else. So I think gradually it will trickle through the ecosystem. I just think I wish it would pour.

Nora Ali: Well, it's a good note for our listeners though. Just be more cognizant, be intentional with your dollars, because that's what makes the impact at the end of the day.

Allison Collins: Yes. Yes. It does matter.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. Well, Allison, thank you for really enlightening us and this is something that I certainly hadn't given much thought to what's going on behind the scenes of these companies, but it's reporting like yours that is helping to move the needle, so we appreciate it.

Nora Ali: Thanks, Alison.

Allison Collins: Well, thank you so much for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, folks, time now once again for Quizness Casual, the Business Casual quiz. We're going to throw it back to Priyanka Ganjoo, founder of Kulfi Beauty, for today's quiz, all about the beauty industry. And Priyanka, you're not alone. You have your sister in arms, Nora Ali, here to help you out along the way.

Priyanka Ganjoo: Yay. Do I win a prize?

Scott Rogowsky: You're going to win pride, how about that? Bragging rights. Let's do it. What is the most expensive perfume in the world? Is it Golden Delicious by DKNY, Shumukh by Asghar Adam Ali, No. 1 One Imperial majesty by Clive Christian, or Les Larmes Sacree de Thebes by Baccarat, that's the crystal company, I think.

Priyanka Ganjoo: I would say the Baccarat one, but that's a wild guess.

Nora Ali: Let's go with it then. We're locking it in. D.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, the most expensive perfume in the world comes from a single bottle of this perfume in existence. That's right. There's just one bottle in existence and it costs a whopping 1.29 million dollars an ounce for Shumukh by Adam Asghar Ali. Unbelievable.

Nora Ali: I'm sorry, what?

Scott Rogowsky: It goes, Shumukh.

Nora Ali: I've never understood why perfumes period are so expensive. I live solely off of these free samples I get from Sephora for my perfumes. It's just crazy. It's a liquid.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, let's try again, Priyanka. You're O for one, but it's all right. What is the number one beauty company in the world by sales/brand value?

Priyanka Ganjoo: Oh, beauty company is L'Oreal.

Nora Ali: We're going with L'Oreal.

Scott Rogowsky: L'Oreal. Lock it in. With a brand value of over $10 billion, L'Oreal Paris leads the pack.

Nora Ali: Dang.

Scott Rogowsky: The most successful number one beauty company in the world by sales and brand value is L'Oreal. Congratulations. You knew that one. Nice job. You're one for two. Your battin' 500. Here we go. Final question. Bellini Baby is the name of an eyeshadow color by which of the following makeup moguls: Charlotte Tilbury, Kylie Jenner, Rihanna, or Selena Gomez?

Priyanka Ganjoo: Kylie. I'm just going to make this up.

Nora Ali: Oh, she knows it.

Priyanka Ganjoo: I actually don't. I just said that.

Nora Ali: No, okay. Your gut told you Kylie so hard, Priyanka.

Priyanka Ganjoo: I just said that. It just sounded like something Kylie would do.

Nora Ali: Bellini Baby. I feel like I've seen ads for Bellini Baby. My guess would've been Rihanna, I think, but let's go with Kylie.

Priyanka Ganjoo: Could be Rihanna, but yeah.

Nora Ali: It could be anybody. It could be anybody. It could be Priyanka Ganjoo. We're doing it. Kylie.

Scott Rogowsky: Bellini Baby believe you me, Bellini Baby is a sparkly pink shade in one of Rihanna's Fenty Beauty eyeshadow palettes. Well, one for three ain't bad.

Nora Ali: These were hard.

Scott Rogowsky: They've been getting harder, too.

Nora Ali: But it was good collaboration. I think we did well at the end of the day.

Scott Rogowsky: Priyanka, thanks for quizzing with us today and thanks for chatting as well.

Priyanka Ganjoo: Thank you both of you for this opportunity. I loved it so much.

Scott Rogowsky: We love hearing from our Business Casual listeners, so please hit us up. We're working on an episode about the cyber security business and we want to know, do you use a password manager or you just keep all those random number and letter combos, with special characters, jumbled up in your brain? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Send us an email at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod, that's B-I-Zcasualpod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You could also leave a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm or give us a ring and leave us an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from, so we can hear from you in a future episode

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is expertly contoured by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production, sound design, and mixing by Daniel Markus. Alan Haburchak is the Director of Audio of Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of Multimedia. Our fact checker is Holly Van Leuven. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear candy, and we'd love it if you give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual, I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.