Dec. 13, 2021

Un-Hinge-ing the Business of Dating

You can put a price on [finding] love.


Nora and Scott dive into the business of love just in time for cuffing season. First, Talia Goldstein, President & Founder of Three Day Rule, talks about building an exclusive matchmaking company that sets singles up with their own matchmaker. Then, Logan Ury, Director of Relationship Science at Hinge, talks about the psychology behind the ever-evolving online dating business. And Nora and Scott share their results from Logan’s Three Dating Tendencies quiz

Transcript

Nora Ali: There was once a time when matchmaking services and dating apps were viewed as a last resort when it came to finding love. And definitely not part of the typical how we met story. But dating services, whether IRL or exclusively online, are becoming the norm in the business of love and they're only growing in popularity. So today in the midst of cuffing season, we're going to dive into the business of finding your match and the science behind it. First, we'll hear from Talia Goldstein, the president and founder of Three Day Rule, an exclusive service that puts a modern spin on an ancient practice: IRL matchmaking. Three Day Rule operates in 12 cities and has the country's largest matchmaking database catering to all types of romantic relationships across the LGBTQ plus spectrum and across broad age ranges. Then we'll get some insight into the psychology behind online dating with Logan Ury, a behavioral scientist-turned-dating coach who works as the directer of relationship science at Hinge, a dating app built on a Nobel Prize-winning algorithm with the goal of getting customers off the app and into long-term relationships. From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with some of the biggest names in business, asking them the questions you wish you could ask. I'm your host, Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm your other host, single Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you stories of how business shapes our lives today and into the future. Now let's get down to business.

Scott Rogowsky: Nora, you and I are just floating through this world forever unattached, single to the grave, right? We're getting matching tattoos that say that don't we?

Nora Ali: Yeah, let's get matching tattoos. You know that's because we are happy with ourselves.

Scott Rogowsky: Right.

Nora Ali: We like who we are. We are independent. We don't need no, man, no woman.

Scott Rogowsky: We are whole.

Nora Ali: We are whole.

Scott Rogowsky: We don't need anyone to make us whole.

Nora Ali: We are whole on our own. I have used lots of dating apps in my life. In fact, I met one of my long-term exes on a website, not an app, a website called sparkology.com. Have you ever heard of Sparkology?

Scott Rogowsky: No. This is some web 1.0.

Nora Ali: Yeah. It kind of was. It wasn't even mobile friendly if you pulled it up on your phone. It doesn't exist anymore. But I met one person on it and dated that person for five years, so it worked to some extent.

Scott Rogowsky: Five years. 

Nora Ali: Yeah. Five years.

Scott Rogowsky: It's a good thing that one ended, Nora, because I don't know, to tell people how you met at your wedding it's like, we met on Sparkology, a defunct dating website that wasn't even mobile friendly. I mean, how lame do you have to be? No, that was meant to fail. Sorry.

Nora Ali: I guess so. How about you? Have you used apps? What's your experience like?

Scott Rogowsky: Oh, I've used them all.

Nora Ali: All of them?

Scott Rogowsky: I was back on J Date, back in the day, like 2009, I think, is when I was using the J Date for the Jews. And then when Tinder came along and the swiping apps, that was really revelatory and it was dangerous too, Nora. I'll admit I was just swiping right on every single person that came on because I figured it's like lobster fishing. You throw the pots out, the lobster pots, and you just hope that some lobsters silly enough to crawl in there. I'd be with some female friends and watch them on the app and they'd swipe right on somebody. It was an instant match every single time. But for us...

Nora Ali: It's pretty unbalanced. Now you have to pay for unlimited swipes on some of these apps, which I think it's a smart business decision because people want to get endless swipes.

Scott Rogowsky: These apps are printing money now too. You get the behavior locked in, but I've not gone ahead and paid for the service which is maybe a function of my frugality. I want to find someone who's also not paying. I think the two of us should match up in that regard. Freemium for life.

Nora Ali: Wow. So you would rather date somebody who has not paid for an app service? 

Scott Rogowsky: I think if we're truly going to get along, then we both have to shared the mindset.

Nora Ali: Well, and I think these superficial criteria, like I want to date someone who doesn't pay for apps. We've learned through our conversations that we've just had that maybe we shouldn't be having that mindset. So you and I have work to do. We have to make some mental shifts, but I hope our listeners learn as much as we did from our conversations today. So let's start with our convo with Talia Goldstein. She's the president and founder of Three Day Rule. Talia, we're excited for this convo. It feels like IRL matchmaking is making a little bit of a comeback. I have to admit, I did have a conversation with one of your matchmakers back in August. I discovered Three Day Rule via TikTok, which we can get into later. But let's start with what inspired you to leave your job as a TV producer and then actually launch this matchmaking company back in 2010?

Talia Goldstein: Yes. I was working in television on the show E! True Hollywood Story and everyone was single. And just for fun, I was matching my friends and my coworkers and I would sit in my cubicle and people would come up and ask for some relationship advice. Some of the online searches, Match, eHarmony, they had existed. The apps weren't around then, but I would help them with profile. And it was totally a passion project. It was so fun. So I decided to host some parties around town so I could bring my coworkers and my friends together. Every time we had an event, it would grow. So 30 people, 300 people, and the last event we had about 600 people taking over the rooftop of The London, and really it was at one of those events that I realized something is obviously missing in the market if all of these people are not only coming, but they were paying to come to the event. So I loved it and I saw the need.

Nora Ali: For our listeners who have never worked with an IRL matchmaker before, can you walk us through the process of what you actually go through if you sign up for Three Day Rule? I know there's a photo shoot involved, there's a lot of curation. You have matchmakers hunting down men and women for you. So what is that end to end process like?

Talia Goldstein: You can go to the website, it's threedayrule.com and sign up. It takes about two minutes to create a profile. From there you're assigned a new member strategist. Our job is to meet with you and get a sense of who you are and what you're looking for. So we're asking all about your parents' marriage and your childhood and your goals for the future and what you're looking for. It's a pretty deep dive, so we get a sense of who you are and also whether or not we think we can work with you. We want to make sure we can deliver. So if we do feel that we can have success and you're interested in moving forward as a client, then you sign up and we pair you with a matchmaker that we think is a good fit for you and that matchmaker gets to know you a lot more on a personal level. We also ask you to send photos of exes so we can see who you've dated. You can also send photos of other people you find attractive. And then the matchmaker's job is to go through our network and even outside of our network to find all of the people who could be potential matches on paper and interview them. So we're doing the same interview with the matches that we did with you so we can figure out if your core values align and your goals for the future align. And then anyone that we think could be a fit for our client, we will share with the client. Then they will go on the date. And this part I think is actually the most valuable part of the service. We get post-date feedback so that way we have an understanding of what our client is like on a date and how we can help them become better daters because we all have blind spots. You don't get that information in the real world, so we'll know exactly what's happening. Then we'll also find out from the client, how they felt about the date and we know how to move forward. Are they excited and they want to pause and go on hold? Do they want to change up any criteria? It's a thoughtful process after every match so we know what the next step is. Then as you mentioned, it does include a photo shoot so we have new pictures and they're also assigned a separate person who's their dating strategist. And that's to dig deeper on anything that's coming up. Perhaps vulnerability or attachment styles or whatever is coming up for them, they can dig deeper with their coach, their strategist.

Nora Ali: 360-degree service, everything you could possibly want.

Talia Goldstein: It really is.

Scott Rogowsky: It sounds like a white glove concierge experience for dating. I assume this comes with a price tag. What is your revenue model? Is this on the upper echelon of the dating fee spectrum?

Talia Goldstein: I would say we're in the middle, but anyone can actually sign up for free to be a match for one of our clients. Really nothing to lose by just seeing if you are a match, but on the client side, it starts at $5,900 and we just have a few tiers from there. It's essentially outsourcing your love life. But if you think about it, you do that, you hire a realtor and a personal trainer and a nutritionist. Why not do the same thing for what's likely the most important part of your life?

Nora Ali: One of the first questions I asked when I had my intro call was, who is signing up for this? Because I think there is still this connotation that if you're signing up for a matchmaking service, maybe you're desperate, or you just haven't had luck with the apps. But I was told that is not the case. It's people who are very busy and maybe do want to invest into dating, but just don't really have the time. So can you give us some insight as to who that customer is right now?

Talia Goldstein: It's exactly right. A lot of people think that matchmaking is for those who are desperate. It's actually exactly the opposite. It's for people who can get a date any night of the week, but they don't have the time and energy to sift through online dating or going out and about to meet people. So we're working with top executives, CEOs, a lot of entrepreneurs, doctors, lawyers, people who are really looking for a relationship, but they just don't have the time to dedicate to it. We work with a really wide range. That's the majority of our clients. We do have some people who haven't had a ton of dating experience and so we're helping them become more confident. Daters we have people who are fresh out of a divorce and they're getting back out there after 20, 30 years, and it's hard. Dating has changed so much. So we work with a very wide range of people, but the majority are just successful busy professionals.

Nora Ali: I discovered Three Day Rule as I mentioned on TikTok. Basically a matchmaker landed on my For You page and said, are you a woman in your thirties, in New York City? Are you single and tired of the apps? I was like, yes, that is me. And it applies to so many people in my life, but I am curious, what have been the best acquisition channels?

Talia Goldstein: Actually, number one for us is referrals. So we'll match a couple successfully and then they'll tell their friends. It's interesting, what typically happens is the woman will tell 10 people and the man might tell one. I think that's partially why we have more women than men, but we've tried, we've done Facebook and we were on Clubhouse. Our match checkers are constantly recruiting specifically for our clients. If we're matching you for example, and we see someone who could be your type on LinkedIn, or Instagram, or in Whole Foods or yoga, we're going to approach him and find out if he's single. And if he is we'll interview him and if it's a match, we set you up. We have done some crazy things to find matches. We're shameless. That's what it comes down to.

Scott Rogowsky: Do you find yourself competitive with these apps or do you see a lot of your clients saying, I tried it on the apps and I'm done with it. I'm sick of it. How do you convince someone, who's more likely to maybe try a dating app to choose your service? Talia Goldstein:

Most of the people who come to us have been on the apps and they've tried it and it's, for some reason not working. I'm a fan of the apps. I think you can find your person on them, but only if you're looking for the right things. I think what's happening is that people are swiping right past their soulmates because they're not looking for what they should be. They're only swiping on what's familiar to them and familiar is not always what's best. With matching, we get a 360 view of who these people are and we can match them accordingly, but I think a lot of times on your own, you're missing out on really great opportunities. If you can keep an open mind and you have 12 hours a week, which is what the average online dater spends online, do online. We help our clients when they're online dating, we will redo their profile and help them with messaging. We just want our clients to find their person, whether it's through us or on their own.

Nora Ali: And one of the challenges to these apps is just the endless quantity, which Scott and I both live in densely populated cities. I'm in New York, he's in LA, and that can sometimes be difficult because you know that there's endless swipes. Maybe the next best thing is still to come so you don't want to settle for just okay. How does Three Day Rule shift that mindset where you are maybe curating a smaller list of people for your clients, but it is quality over quantity? Do you find that that something that your clients, especially in big cities are looking for?

Talia Goldstein: Definitely. And that's one of the biggest issues I think with online dating is everyone's looking for the bigger, better deal, and they're not actually giving the person across them a fair shot. So they're on the date and maybe it's not perfect and sparks aren't flying, and so they are swiping in their cab home. That's not really a great way to date. You can't judge by that short amount of time. When we're doing the matching, typically we're presenting one at a time. So you go on the date with someone that we think would be a good match for you. We're getting the feedback after, and we're encouraging you to slow things down. If you are remotely interested or curious about the person, you should go out again. Typically it's a slow burn. Like the couples that last, the longest, it's slow to start. So we're just trying to encourage them to slow down a little bit, really analyze after every date to decide if they want another date. I think actually COVID helped with that. It used to be a lot faster. I don't know if you've noticed that, but we found that people were cranking out five dates a week and really never settling down, but then COVID slowed things down. I hope that it sticks, but it was very hard to do that during the pandemic.

Nora Ali: I have friends who used to double up. Like two or three dates even in one day. A 2:00 PM coffee on Saturday and then an evening date. And that just, it blows my mind. I could never-

Scott Rogowsky: Guilty of that.

Nora Ali: Really? How do you do that?

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, Have one at 6:00 PM and a 9:00 PM, an early and late seating. I tell you this pandemic has sort of shed light on a new filter, I guess you can call it, because there's so many categories and boxes people want to check. Height or age or religion, and now I'm seeing on these apps here, some people are saying, vaxed only, and other people are saying unvaxed only. It's that kind of remarkable. Are you seeing this divide coming into play now?

Talia Goldstein: Definitely. The last few years, a lot of the deal breakers for us, were political. Like I will not date an X supporter. That's a hard, no. And now it's vaccination. So it is coming into play. On the flip side, people are more open to the other things that you mentioned. So pre-pandemic, we were seeing a lot of, they must be over six feet tall and have an Ivy league degree and perfect teeth and a great family. But then I think in the pandemic, people realize none of that really mattered. They were trying to figure out who would be best suited for them in a pandemic.

Scott Rogowsky: What really matters, Talia, is viral load. And that's something that we just never really thought about much before this pandemic, but now you want somebody who's not going to kill you while you're sleeping with them.

Talia Goldstein: Right. And you're stuck with someone in the house for a year, your priorities change. It's become less superficial, which is a silver lining of the pandemic.

Scott Rogowsky: There are studies that have been done on where people meet each other and maybe it's at someone's wedding, or at work. I feel like a lot of it is people you work with. But now you think about how fraught the workplace has become, are people hesitant to maybe ask a coworker out just because of, maybe the politics have changed or the policies have changed around that? 

Talia Goldstein: I think so. I think the workplace is sort of off the table as an option. It's just too risky. I think we're going to see far less people meeting through work, but you're right, historically, that was a great place to meet for someone.

Scott Rogowsky: So Nora and I are out. That's it, ain't happening. Sorry, Nora. Talia says so. Nora's been in my DMs every day for the last three months, Talia.

Nora Ali: Let's not spread misinformation here.

Scott Rogowsky: Talia Goldstein, thank you for joining us. Talia is the president and founder of Three Day Rule. It's been a pleasure chatting on this special cuffing edition of Business Casual.

Nora Ali: Thank you, Talia.

Scott Rogowsky: From modern matchmaking to online dating, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we'll hear from Logan Ury, author of the book How Not to Die Alone and director of relationship science at Hinge. From a Harvard porn enthusiast to now working at Hinge and a behavioral scientist, you've had quite the career here in this space, Logan.

Logan Ury: I do my best.

Scott Rogowsky: I have to just ask about this undergraduate thesis, "Porn to be Wild." So you studied the porn habits of Harvard undergrads. Was it just scrolling LinkedIn? Is that what the porn was for them? 

Logan Ury: No, it was looking at their own resumes and being like, I killed it. I'm going to get that Goldman internship.

Scott Rogowsky: Their own resumes, right? Yeah. They're class standings.

Nora Ali: I'm the kind of person who likes to apply science and hard facts to things that do feel nebulous and feel like an art, like dating. So can you explain to us what it actually means to be the director of relationship science at Hinge and how you apply your behavioral science backgrounds to some of these recommendations and suggestions, both for the app and also to your dating clients?

Logan Ury: Absolutely, yes. So relationship science is the study of how love works. A lot of people feel like, oh, love is this organic natural thing and it defies science and why would you even study that? But I have the opposite perspective. My view is relationships are one of the most important things you can have in your life and a lot of research shows that our overall health, happiness and life satisfaction hinge on the quality of our relationships. So I would argue we should be doing a lot of research into this field. Luckily there is this academic field called relationship science that studies attraction, that studies compatibility, that studies speed dating. Then there's a field called behavioral science, and this is the study of how we make decisions. One of the key tenants of behavioral science, we often make decisions that aren't in our own best interest. We might say, I want to save money for retirement and then we get a Black Friday sale from West Elm and suddenly we're redoing our whole apartment. So why is that? What are these biases that causes us to not act in the way we want to? Really what I do is I take those two things, I take how do people think, how do people make decisions, then how does that impact the decisions they're making in their love life? For example, at Hinge, right now I'm doing a really fascinating survey about Gen Z versus Millennial daters. One of the tips that I got from a friend who works with a lot of Gen Z daters is something around Gen Z is much more likely to think that things that happen in the digital world are basically as if they had happened IRL, in real life. So one of the questions is, would you consider it having sex if you'd had phone sex with somebody? Would you consider it having sex if you'd sexted with somebody? I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head. I just got the results in this morning, but it was basically like Gen Z is twice as likely as Millennials to consider those things to be having sex. And then what does that mean about the future of relationships? What does that mean about the metaverse? I saw a headline today that said a couple got married who's never met in person, they've only Zoomed. So I have this incredible honor and it's a lot of fun to think about helping people get into relationships, helping people get out of bad relationships, and also what do the future of relationships look like?

Nora Ali: Well, I think a lot of these apps, too, are trying to add features to make those digital experiences feel more IRL and maybe also just to cater to that Gen Z demographic. One, relatively new feature on Hinge that I'd love to get your take on is audio, where you can add a little audio clip to your profile and it reminds you of Clubhouse or Twitter spaces where audio is king now. What do you think about the audio feature? Is this something that people are actually liking so far?

Logan Ury: I'm really proud of the audio feature. It's been so fun to see it explode on TikTok and it's one of those things where you launch a feature and people take it in all different directions. The reason why I work at Hinge, the reason why I like the app is that it really is about trying much as possible to portray yourself authentically. For me, adding audio is just another way that you can get a little bit closer to saying like, this is what I'm really like or dating me would sound like...

Scott Rogowsky: Right, because how do you meet someone online? They look so attractive and so interesting and then you show up in the day and the guy's like, "Hey, how you doing, my name's Scott" or something like that? Maybe the voice sounds like mine right now. The voice is important.

Nora Ali: Like that.

Scott Rogowsky: Voices, I've always thought that.

Nora Ali: It is.

Scott Rogowsky: Which is why I'm so embarrassed by how my voice is sounding in this particular moment, because I can't hit the high notes today, Logan. I can't get there.

Logan Ury: Yeah. We have done research on that. There's a part of me that's like, who cares what somebody's voice sounds like? You should care about how they make you feel, you should care about if this person is your life partner. There is a sort of idealistic part of me that's like throw voice out the window, who cares? But that's not realistic. People do care about voice. We've done tons of research. I've heard from so many dating coaching clients exactly what you said, Scott. I liked this person. We were messaging on the app. We were texting for a while. We met up in person, the minute that that person opened their mouth, I was like, "eh, not for me." And so if that's what people are telling us that they're having a really strong reaction to voice, let's bring voice to the future. I think I have a very strong sense of smell and there's lots of really interesting research on pheromones and I even had a guy break up with me. He was like, "I don't think our pheromones match."

Scott Rogowsky: I believe in that.

Logan Ury: Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, in an ideal world who cares? But because people do care, how can we actually bring that to the app experience? I think the Hinge audio feature is really cool.

Scott Rogowsky: We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we'll also talk about normalization of dating apps and the behavioral science behind them.

Scott Rogowsky: Okay. As you of course know, and as all of us were alive know, in the past several years, the online dating industry has boomed. Engagement on dating apps in the U.S. reached a record high this past July, no doubt influenced by the lockdowns and pandemics. Daily active users on the most popular dating apps, top 15 million, according to recent reporting in Bloomberg Businessweek. Is it the pandemic alone or what else is accounting for all this recent growth in your industry?

Logan Ury: There is a great researcher, he's a sociologist from Stanford named Michael J Rosenfeld and he runs this incredible annual survey. He's studying how couples who are in happy or successful relationships, where did they meet? And around 2017, 2018, so obviously pre-pandemic, online dating became the number one way that couples are meeting right now. This overtook meeting through friends and family, meeting at bars and restaurants, meeting at work. This is definitely where the trend is heading in terms of how people are meeting. And then the pandemic was like this final piece of it, where people who had been holdouts, people who said online dating isn't for me, they realized there was no other way to meet someone. You weren't at the dog park, you weren't at your cousin's wedding. So I did personally, anecdotally, see a lot of those holdouts join. I would say the stigma is gone. This is the most common way that people are dating, most single people I know are using apps. It doesn't mean that you can't use something else, but it's sort of the default way to meet someone and it's almost quirkier now to meet someone offline.

Nora Ali: As you're doing your research at Hinge and using your behavioral science background, what are some of the features that you think have really been sticking and work well to align with that model for Hinge, which is "designed to be deleted"? You actually want people to find success. You don't necessarily want to retain your users because if they're sticking around, it means it's maybe not actually working.

Logan Ury: So when I was researching my book, way before I worked at Hinge, I had the opportunity to interview Justin McLeod, the Hinge CEO. I walked in there and I was like, look, I've worked at Google, I've worked at Airbnb, user acquisition is really hard. I don't believe designed to be deleted. It doesn't make sense. What company would brag about churning its users? And he gave me this very convincing explanation that before Hinge had this philosophy, when it was more similar to other apps, it was sort of in the middle of the market. But once Hinge completely redid the app and made this emphasis on slowing people down, being the relationships app designed to be deleted, they saw explosive growth. Basically the whole thing was that if you meet someone on Hinge, you are going to tell your friend about it. And that word of mouth recommendation is much more valuable than just trying to get a bunch of users and keep them on the app. Some of the features that really emphasize that, one of them is the onboarding process. So 20% of people who sign up for Hinge actually drop out and other companies would be like, that's terrible, how do we reduce friction? How do we increase incentives? But Hinge is actually like, okay, if you can't put the effort in to upload six photos, are you really ready to be in a relationship? We're kind of getting out the people who won't put effort in. Another thing is that there's no swiping. So you have to comment or like on a particular picture or prompt, and that actually slows you down. You have to think, not just do I find this person attractive, but you have to really take that moment to say, I like this picture, or I'm going to comment on this. It's really about slowing down, thinking about each person individually and then engaging with them. I feel like that has attracted a more intentional audience. We did research this summer that shows that 75% of Hinge users are looking for a relationship. I feel like the community of people that chooses to be there just means that if you're also looking for a relationship, it's a good use of time.

Nora Ali: That word of mouth thing is so critical. I don't think I've ever Googled, what's the best dating app. I literally learn about dating apps because I use the ones that my friends are using. So that's really key.

Scott Rogowsky: And anecdotally, I have heard that Hinge is the best one, at the marriages that I've been attending, the weddings and people I know in relationships, everyone. Hinge comes up repeatedly as the one. And then therefore of course, it's the one I haven't tried because I think I've tried every other app under the sun. I've been on Cringe, Logan, but I'm afraid to try Hinge because I feel like--

Logan Ury: Don't be afraid.

Scott Rogowsky: It's almost like a fear of success, right? Like I feel like I'm going to find that person and then my dating life is over. I cherish my dating life so much, Logan.

Nora Ali: Do you love being single?

Scott Rogowsky: It means so much to me, being single. Yes, it does. 

Nora Ali: Your identity now.

Scott Rogowsky: I mean so much of my stand-up act has been about it, but you know, I'm turning 30-[inaudible] next week and I am getting closer to the age where I like feel like it's time to grow up and stop being a little ass boy, which is a line from the show, Love Life, which I was watching, which is fantastic. 

Nora Ali: Great show.

Scott Rogowsky:

Which is also influencing my decision to maybe settle down. But no, it's personally, I feel like when I'm ready, I will go on Hinge. But right now I'm going to stick to the "hookup" apps.

Nora Ali: This feels like a good time to ask Logan her take on our dating tendencies because, Logan, we both took your quiz.

Logan Ury: Yay. I'm so excited.

Nora Ali: So for our listeners, there's three types of dating tendencies: the hesitater, the maximizer, and the romanticizer.

Scott Rogowsky: So why don't you explain first of all, what these three types are and why you've narrowed these types down to just three.

Logan Ury: Working as a dating coach with a lot of different people from different cultures and backgrounds, I was like, okay, can I categorize what's holding these people back from finding love? And remember this isn't the entire population, this is people that are coming to me saying, "Hey, something isn't working. I will pay you money to talk to me about this." I found that each of them had unrealistic expectations about some element of dating and love. Hesitater, unrealistic expectations of themselves. This is the person who's, I'm not lovable yet, why would I put myself out there to start dating when no one's going to like me like this? I'll start dating when I lose 10 pounds, I clean up my apartment, I have a better job title, whatever it is. The romanticizer has unrealistic expectations of relationships. They think there's a soulmate, there's one person for me. When I meet them, it'll be effortless. They care about the how-we-met story. They love love. It's sort of the Disney fairytales plus romcom person. And then the third type is the maximizer. They have unrealistic expectations of their partner and so their mindset is, eh, I like my girlfriend, but could she be 10% more ambitious? Could she be 5% hotter? Could she be 20% more interested in talking about ideas? And so there's this concept of, oh, if I keep researching and keep swiping, eventually I'll find the perfect person. And I think Scott is a maximizer.

Scott Rogowsky: If we want to get a real here, little girl talk between the three of us. I took the quiz, the results came back based on my answers, which I gave as my sort of old Scott, my primary dating tendency is the maximizer. Logan, the scientist was right. Okay. But I'm now in the mode of just meet somebody, see where it goes. Don't put any pressure on yourself to try objectively, to kind of be in this moment versus judging it constantly. Which is like the hardest thing.

Nora Ali: You coached yourself. Look at that, Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes.

Nora Ali: A lot of growth.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm a reformed maximizer. I'm reforming myself. So much of our online world, websites, mobile apps, is dictated by filters and filters can be very handy when you're on eBay looking for that certain rare vintage baseball card or Airbnb where you want the jacuzzi. But when it comes to dating, can filters be dangerous if used to excess?

Logan Ury: A few years ago, I had a singles party and I worked really hard on it. I had, I think 25 men, 25 women, it was a straight dating event. Afterwards 70 dates came out of it and I sent out a survey and I said, is this the type of person who you would've swiped right on, on a dating app? One of the most common answers I got is no, I wouldn't have swiped right on this person because I literally wouldn't have seen them on the app and that's because of the filters they set. So it might have been this person, isn't the same religion as me, this person, isn't the race that I usually go after or the most common one was this person is outside of my age range. You think, you know what you want, but you're wrong. Age is one where I think people are way too strict. I often say to my clients, you don't have to turn off the age filter, but why don't you add three to the max age and subtract three from the minus age? Because so often we think, oh, well I'm this age and this is my maturity level, but people of all different ages can be different maturity levels. What was really cool that came out of that event was some 36 year old woman ended up dating a really mature 28 year old guy and she wouldn't have thought that would've worked. I think that's one of the ways where the dating app is a highly curated experience where you are only seeing what you allow the app to show you. How can you be more flexible, both in terms of your settings and also in who you say yes to and who you say no to.

Nora Ali: It feels like such a commitment sometimes just to have that conversation, which is kind of sad in some ways. But Logan, just to put a bow on this, we talk about co-founder dating on this podcast and finding the right business partner, the right co-founder. So how do you apply all of those learnings, whether you're a maximizer, you're hesitant, or you're a romanticizer, how do you apply that to finding the right people to work with? Especially if you're trying to launch on an entrepreneurial journey? 

Logan Ury: Oh, I love this. Thank you for asking me those questions. I think that the three dating tendencies could actually apply to co-founder dating and I'll tell you where I see that fitting. So the hesitation is the person who thinks, oh, I can't start a company yet until I do X, Y, Z. That's not true, you can learn as you go. If you're not technical, you can find a technical co-founder. You can actually find the skills that you're missing in another person. You don't need to be the perfect YC candidate before you start a company. For the romanticizer, how I see this playing out is a lot of people romanticized founding a company. So they think about being in the room together with the whiteboard and they're going to talk about changing the world and they think about fundraising and all the fun parts, but then they actually don't realize, okay, a lot of being a CEO is dealing with HR, payroll, keeping your investors happy, not sleeping. And so they actually have unrealistic expectations of what being a founder or running a businesses. And then finally the maximizer, when it comes to co-founder dating is they keep meeting different potential co-founders and they're like, well, his resume is great, but he's never worked internationally. Or she would be really great, but I'm not sure what her commitment is to a cryptocurrency or whatever it is. For the maximizer co-founder, it's choose someone great and build something with them. Don't just keep looking for the perfect person because the perfect person or the perfect co-founder doesn't exist. 

Nora Ali: That is great advice. Well, Logan, this has been an amazing conversation. We could talk to you for hours, but we will end it there. Logan Ury is the author of the book How Not to Die Alone and director of relationship science at Hinge. Thanks again, Logan. We really appreciate it.

Logan Ury: Thanks for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: And now, BC listeners, we want to hear from you send an email to businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Z-casual pod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a call and leave us a message. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling a writing from so we can include you in a future episode. Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is lovingly produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins; additional production sound, design, mixing, and satisfycing by Daniel Marcus. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Marcus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear candy. Cuff with us. And we'd love it if you would give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual, baby.