Jan. 13, 2022

The Truth About the Wellness Industry

Is it all one big medicine show?


Pour yourself a tall glass of celery juice and join Scott and Nora as they break down the wellness industry with Amanda Mull, a staff writer for The Atlantic. She details its history, meteoric rise, clever marketing strategies, and lack of regulation. Check out some of Amanda’s reporting on Goop and Instagram wellness fads.

Transcript

Nora Ali: You look like you're doing jumping jacks to our listeners.

Scott Rogowsky: Do you like to get healthy, Nora?

Nora Ali: Yes. We like to get healthy.

Scott Rogowsky: You like your health?

Nora Ali: I do. Do you?

Scott Rogowsky: You like wellness?

Nora Ali: I do like wellness.

Scott Rogowsky: Woo. Health and wellness.

Nora Ali: I like the wellness industry when it's real. When it's not fake products.

Scott Rogowsky: When it's real.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: Is it real? That's the question we're diving into today. What is this wellness industry? What's been your experience- -

Nora Ali: The dark side.

Scott Rogowsky: ...interfacing with it?

Nora Ali: I get so many targeted ads and posts, Scott, on my Instagram feed. I've fallen into the trap a few times. One product that has worked, we didn't talk about this with Amanda, but blue light glasses. What are your thoughts on blue light glasses?

Scott Rogowsky: Well, I went for the blue light blockers to be implanted into my actual prescription glasses. They had that option at Warby.

Nora Ali: Okay, I that you're going to say implanted into your eyeballs.

Scott Rogowsky: It's in my eyeballs. Wouldn't that be something I normally would say?

Nora Ali: It would, yes. 

Scott Rogowsky: But I was trying to be real with you and not be joking here and say, yes, I spent the extra $95 for the UV blue light blocker things in my whatever.

Nora Ali: And what do you think? Does it make a difference?

Scott Rogowsky: I don't know. I can't tell. I can't tell with this stuff. I succumb to it. I don't know if this is a wellness thing, probably is. I succumb to one of these Instagram ads. It was the Hugsleep.

Nora Ali: Excuse me?

Scott Rogowsky: It's called the Hugsleep. It's like, remember the Snuggie?

Nora Ali: Like a Snuggie? Yeah!

Scott Rogowsky: Basically a Snuggie. I don't know why they just didn't think like, oh, this seems like a worse Snuggie. I never had a Snuggie, but those look fun. They come in different patterns and things. This is just like a little, small sleeping bag that you just strap yourself into and it's supposed to keep, recreate the womb. That's what sold me. I was like, you can be back in the womb and that's all I want to do. I just want to crawl back in there.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: And be safe and be held.

Nora Ali: All right. Let's get to our convo, shall we? Amanda Mull is joining us today to help us understand what really goes on in the wellness industry. Amanda is a staff writer for The Atlantic and has covered the wellness industry at length, from wellness misinformation on Instagram and other social platforms to supplements, to even celery juice, which now we know Scott has tried. From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with some of the biggest names in business, asking them the questions you wish you could ask. I'm your host, Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm your other host, celery man Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you stories about business shapes our lives today and into the future. Now let's get down to wellness. 

Nora Ali: Amanda. Wellness industry. The concept of wellness has exploded the last few years, but let's start with a definition. What are we exactly talking about when we talk about the "wellness" industry?

Amanda Mull: Well, that is a great place to start because it is sort of whatever you want it to be. Wellness sort of expands to fit the space, no matter what space you have for it. But in general, it is an industry offering products and services meant to increase your personal wellbeing, however you define that. If you define it as wanting more energy, there are wellness products for that. If you define it as wanting even skin tone, there are options for that. If you want a better sex life, wellness has some options for you. So it really sort of depends on what your problems are. Wellness can be anything.

Scott Rogowsky: We talk about wellness today through the lens of Instagram and the products we're constantly being served or the gurus out there. And of course, Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop is a well known well parodied leader in the wellness market, but this is by no means a new phenomenon. I mean, even earlier in this century, Dr. Phil was all the rage and all the talk show therapists and Dr. Oz and all that. But this goes back centuries, right? Can you walk us through the history of the wellness industry?

Amanda Mull: It's difficult to know where to peg the beginning of this, because a lot of things that are sort of incorporated in or appropriated for modern wellness are things that have been around for not just hundreds, but thousands of years. You get a real uptake in fast and easy versions of traditional Chinese medicine, traditional Indian medicine, things like that. The concept of wanting to feel better and of wanting to find things that make you feel better is as old as humanity, but in the United States, when you start to look at the organized sale of products for this purpose, you can go back to, I would say it starts kicking up in the late 1700s and then really goes into high gear in the mid-1800s. You have this concept called the medicine show where sort of traveling peddlers went from town to town with what were then known as patent medicines. Which had been formulated out of God knows what to address the multitude of symptoms there. The medical profession was not formalized at that time and a lot of treatments for very basic ailments didn't really exist. There were a lot of people looking for self-proclaimed gurus and experts to give them a way to feel better, and we have pretty much been in one big medicine show ever since.

Nora Ali: The market itself is growing so quickly. McKinsey even estimates that the global wellness market is going to reach over $1.5 trillion with an annual growth rate of 5% to 10%. What fuels the industry's boom in just the past few years, and why has it been growing so steadily?

Amanda Mull: Well, I think you really have a confluence of things. Social media really helps because that gives people a way to feel like they are, as the phrase has become popular in the past year and a half, doing their own research and finding out information that they can't necessarily get from their doctors. Either because their doctors aren't very good or because that information is false, depending. So you have people who are out there looking for answers for one reason or another, and you have a lot of people who are prepared to do that for them. Providing people with answers to these types of problems is one of the oldest professions. In the United States, in particular, you have a situation where health and wellbeing has sort of become a luxury good with our employment based consumer healthcare system. Being healthy and not just feeling good, but being visibly "healthy," meeting other people's expectations of what someone who takes care of themself. So you get people who really want to do whatever they can to embody those standards. I worked in fashion for 10 years before I worked at The Atlantic and a lot of the things that have become popular in general culture in the past five years were popular within the fashion industry before that. You get a lot of juicing and supplements and things like that, that were very popular among extraordinarily wealthy, extraordinarily image-conscious people who were just looking for some kind of edge. Some kind of way to be a little bit skinnier, have a little bit better skin, have a little bit longer hair, whatever, than the women around them. Then generally what the very wealthy do, sort of filters down into mass consumer culture at large. You've got less expensive versions of this stuff for people who follow lots of rich people on Instagram, who look at beauty hacks and health hacks on TikTok. So you've got these really potent weapons for distributing all of this.

Scott Rogowsky: Right. And the wealthy would think nothing of dropping $18 on a collagen-infused green juice that may or may not actually be doing anything for you. So they have the free rein and the disposable income to yes, try one of these things and shoot for the moon when it comes to all these pills and cleansers and fads. There does seem to be a danger when that sort of attitude trickles down into the lay people out there who maybe, are going into debt over the stuff. Do you have any examples of people really just spending themselves into harm, trying to chase health and wellness?

Amanda Mull: The one that's most present in my mind is because I recently reported a story about hair loss, which is a big growth area for the wellness industry. I spent a lot of time in Facebook groups and Reddit forums dedicated to hair loss and specifically to female hair loss. There were so many people in these groups who were spending hundreds of dollars a month on supplements, who were afraid to try like FDA cleared treatments because they had heard they had side effects. Who were giving themselves other health problems with supplements, who were throwing off their thyroid tests because they were taking too much biotin. It's really common for people to sort of look at wellness products as things that are purely additive that can have no harm and that the more you do the better off you are. So you get people really just piling up these treatments on top of each other and none of them, for hair loss specifically, there's no evidence that any of them do anything. And I talked to a lot of hair loss doctors for the piece, and they said that by the time somebody got desperate enough to actually seek attention with a specialist, even if it's somebody who could afford a specialist months prior, years prior, people got to them who were taking between 15 and 35 supplements a day. Just an enormous amount of pills and who had been for a while. So you've got people who are just lighting this money on fire because they feel like they don't know who they can trust. This stuff is so profitable and has such high margin for a lot of it that they can buy lots and lots and lots of targeted advertisements. They can get it out to anybody who's ever Google searched for hair loss. It's incredibly harrowing.

Nora Ali: Basically the ingredients themselves cost very little, but they're charging just tenfold, twenty-fold the price or the actual cost of the ingredients, but that's, to your point, that's spent on marketing. That's why it is so effective, right?

Amanda Mull: Yes. I talked to a guy who owns a website called consumerlab.com, which buys supplements of various types off the shelf at drug stores and GNC, stuff like that and then has them lab tested to see what's actually in them, so that people can compare things across brands, across price points. He said that for most types of supplements, including a really complete multivitamin, you can pay no more than five or six cents per dose and get a really good high quality supplement. But some of these things, hair loss vitamins especially, sometimes cost $1 per dose, $2 per dose. So you've got a really exponential difference in price and it's largely for marketing, branding, packaging, stuff that makes you think that you're buying something high quality. But because supplements are unregulated, they do not have to provide any real information or safety testing or anything like that. People can just sort of give you whatever impression they want.

Scott Rogowsky: This is fascinating. I'm on consumerlab.com right now and I know there are other examples of this, but because of how, just ingrained this wellness industry has becoming our culture and how skeptical some of us are, now there's an industry around verifying these claims and being almost a watchdog. It's just an interesting concept that there are, it's almost like a barnacle on the wellness industry.

Amanda Mull: Yeah. Well, he's doing a service that should you know...

Scott Rogowsky: Should be provided by our government.

Amanda Mull: Right. He's doing a service that should unarguably, I think, be priced into the cost of supplements because supplement manufacturers should be required to do this sort of testing on their own and to provide this information to the general public. That's what we require of drug manufacturers and we require them to disclose what their side effects are, even if they're extremely rare. The pharmaceutical industry has a lot of problems and a lot of things that are not consumer friendly, but the way that they are made to track and disclose this information to the general public is like an inarguable good. But how it gets painted by supplement manufacturers or cosmetic manufacturers often is that, well, we know these things cause side effects. We know, they have to tell us. It's so bad that they were required to disclose it. We don't have any of those ingredients in our things so try our thing it's safer. But the reason we don't know anything about side effects for particular supplements is because they're not required to track or disclose them.

Nora Ali: Exactly.

Amanda Mull: Not because they don't exist.

Nora Ali: There's irony in that, right?

Amanda Mull: Yes.

Nora Ali: Amanda, let's take a very quick break and we will hear more from Amanda, right after this. Going back to who these products are targeted towards, is it people who maybe care about the science or the explanation so much? They're just looking for alternatives regardless of the science behind it?

Amanda Mull: There are people who are there specifically because it is not science based, who don't trust science as a concept. Who think they're being lied to. And then there are people who are sort of in a middle ground, who go to the doctor, who believe in things like vaccines, but who think that, it can't hurt. Why not? Then I think that there is a really big group, and this is a group of people that I have encountered a lot in my reporting, who, if it's on a nice website, if it is attached by name to someone who they're familiar with, like Gwyneth Paltrow or an influencer they like, or something like that. If it looks professional and it looks legit, they don't necessarily have the science literacy to try to figure out if there are studies underpinning it. Basically no one in American society can look at a study and tell you if, what you should glean from. It is a very specific skill. It is one very few people have. When I started this job, I had to learn how to do it and how to evaluate scientific research that's available to the public. How to find it is just very difficult. What most people depend on influencers and celebrities and brands to do is sort of separate the good stuff from the bullshit. And that requires assuming that, if you go to a website that's connected to someone like Gwyneth Paltrow, who is beloved and well known, that the stuff on that website is going to be vetted in some way.

Nora Ali: It's so easy to feign legitimacy now, though. We can make a cute website on square space. You can find some influencer who has 2 million followers and ask them to promote your hair loss gummies, whatever. Do you feel like influencers are becoming more discerning maybe, because there is more conversation around the harms of this industry, or is it just another way to keep monetizing?

Amanda Mull: I think that it sort of depends on the influencer you're talking about. There are influencers who, I think, probably care a lot about not passing on harmful things or passing on untrue things to their audiences and who just personally don't have the capacity to evaluate whether or not some of this stuff is legitimate or sketchy or just not soundly based in science. Because influencers are just regular people, a lot of times, who just happen to accrue a lot of followers. They don't necessarily know how to evaluate if something is good for you. I think that probably a lot of them do care and just don't have the capacity to make the best decisions all the time in those situations and often don't have a team of people who would be doing that. Then you have influencers who I think are probably a little bit more cynical about this stuff and who are willing to sort of play to the engagement. You find this in non-wellness spaces too. You find this in spaces where people are selling political thought or thoughts about sports or whatever. There is money to be made in reflecting people's beliefs back at them and in telling them what want to hear. Some people want to be told that you don't actually have to worry about using something classified as a drug to reverse your hair loss. That you can just buy this one product and use it for a little while and it's completely natural and you'll be fine.

Nora Ali: Now, you just have to Google your issue once and you start getting targeted advertisements on your social platforms of choice so it makes it that much easier for these sort of trends to proliferate because they're reaching the right audiences, the "right" audiences. But, Amanda, you have this great video about Instagram wellness misinformation. Can you walk us through the life cycle of how a wellness product or trend goes viral?

Amanda Mull: Yes. One of my favorite examples of this, just because of how ridiculous the source is and how broad the trend became is celery juice.

Scott Rogowsky: Guilty.

Nora Ali: Wait. Did you try it, Scott?

Scott Rogowsky: Oh yeah. I mean I have--

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: I have a juicer that was gifted to me and I was having some stomach issues so I got some celery stalks from Trader Joe's. I don't like eating celery. I really am an anti celery person. Like I don't like it. If it shows up by my tuna salad, forget about it. I'm not having that tuna salad.

Nora Ali: Did it work? 

Scott Rogowsky: I don't know. Nothing's working for me, but continue. This is a good one.

Amanda Mull: Yes.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah it is.

Amanda Mull: Because this is something that became really common. A lot of people who I know who have plenty of money and access to doctors tried celery juice and who would consider themselves sort of, discerning, fact-based people.

Scott Rogowsky: It's celery. It can't be bad.

Amanda Mull: Right. And that's exactly the logic that goes into a lot of this. It's like, oh, it's celery, it's not gonna hurt me. Or like, oh, it's just a vitamin, it's not going to hurt me. People end up trying a lot of things on that logic. Sometimes it's good logic. Sometimes it's not good logic. It can be taken to an extreme. But anyway, what happened with celery juice is that sort of out of nowhere, fitness influencers and wellness influencers, people who have big followings of raw vegan audiences, people who do a lot of fitness stuff, started posting about the fact that they were drinking celery juice, celery water. Celery is mostly water, every morning and that it had been good for their gut health. They had more energy. They had felt more rested. Their skin was looking better, et cetera. The thing was that you're supposed to juice the celery every morning, on an empty stomach until you got like 16 ounces and then take that straight to the dome and then go about your day, every day. That just sort of traveled somewhat naturally over Instagram. It got a write up on Goop saying that the person who had come up with this and recommended it was one of their favorite, not doctors, because he is not a doctor, but one of their favorite sort of, I don't even know what you would call him. He calls himself--

Scott Rogowsky: The medicine man.

Amanda Mull: Yeah. He calls himself the Medical Medium. I think he was eventually on an episode of Keeping up with the Kardashians or something. He got legitimately famous. Who that guy is, is a guy, a middle-aged guy with a ponytail in Florida who-

Scott Rogowsky: We should mention Amanda, that this person's name is Anthony William. He calls himself the Medical \Medium and he says on his website that he is the quote originator of the global celery juice movement.

Amanda Mull: Despite calling himself the Medical Medium, he does not have any medical training. He does not have any certifications. He has not been to any kind of school. He is a guy who, while he was working at a grocery store was visited by what he calls a spirit that imparts medical knowledge onto him. Then it is, he says it is his responsibility to disseminate that knowledge to the world. This is a situation in which it is really easy for something like this to get sort of removed from its source. Because most of the people I knew who tried celery juice, if you had told them, when you introduced them to the concept that this is a cure made up by an idea who talks to a ghost and a ghost told them about it, they would've said, oh nevermind. But as an idea, it had been laundered through so many layers of people that they felt like they could plausibly trust and maybe not trust with their lives but trust enough to try some celery juice. You end up with this stuff, grocery stores were selling out of celery. It was a huge run on celery. Like in a lot of parts of the country, not just in Brooklyn.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Amanda Mull: Or Hollywood. You can see how quickly, a truly ridiculous, fact-free idea sort of transforms into something that a lot of people who consider themselves smart and discerning and well informed were doing for reasons they didn't understand.

Scott Rogowsky: The ponytail. It's the power of the ponytail. Let's take another quick break here, but we're going to hear more after this.

Nora Ali: Amanda, we've talked a lot about the negatives, the pitfalls of the wellness industry, but it has brought some more attention to self-care, mental health, on the whole. So based on your research, what do you think are some of the specific benefits that might have resulted from this wellnes boom, and focus on it?

Amanda Mull: I think that it's generally good that people are listening to their bodies and listening to the signals that their bodies are giving them and thinking about what they consume and thinking about why they're consuming it. I think that is generally a good thing. People paying attention to chronic pain that they might have just dismissed in the past is good. People noticing the quality of sleep they're getting and wondering if they can do something about that is good. The downside is that really, the only options we give to so many people who are trying to solve these problems is the sort of consumer industry where things are not very well tested. Things are not very well vetted and everybody is sort of on their own to make these decisions for themselves. It really sort of, I know I'm supposed to be saying positive things about wellness right now, but this model of individual discovery in health is just not a great idea for population health because it sort of puts the onus on the individual to spend a lot of time searching for products and buying new things and trying things out and looking at social media to gain some sort of personal status advantage, for some people. Pitting people against each other and against the system, when it comes to solving health problems is exactly the opposite of what would be good for the population as a whole, which would be more universal access to things, fewer things that are dependent on consumer choices, fewer things that are dependent on your own willingness to look for things and fight for things and advocate for yourself. I think that it's good that people feel confident that there are answers out there for them and that feel confident that if they, if something is wrong, it doesn't have to be wrong forever, maybe, and there are things that they can do. But I think wellness ultimately peels them off in the wrong direction.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. I mean, it's complicated, right? You think about how scary this can be and the anxiety around health issues. I mean, look, it all comes down to, all these things come down to, you want to find community because there's safety in community. So you start doing your research and you find these groups and now you're on some Facebook group or you reading some quack's blog, but you feel like you're being seen and heard and helped.

Amanda Mull: Right. I think that that is such an important point because the process of finding and getting medical care in the United States can be an incredibly isolating thing. We have set up the health care system to not be something that makes people feel supported and cared for and valued. People need to feel like that. People deserve to feel like that when they're going through something difficult and they go looking for it. If the only place that they can find a sense that they are with people who understand their problem, if the only place that is is online and in unmonitored Facebook groups or on Reddits that are full of misinformation or in the Instagram comments of some influencer who doesn't have much expertise on anything, then you're sort of opening people up to vulnerability there. And vulnerability that they shouldn't have to have. They should be able to find this type of community and support elsewhere.

Nora Ali: It's a failure of our system.

Scott Rogowsky: Amanda, we are coming to the end of our conversation, but just the beginning of the fun. I've got a bit of a quiz. Something new we're trying on the show, the Business Casual quiz. The Biz Quiz, baby. And it's all about Goop inventory. How much you know about it. How much you've peered through the looking glass there. Today's contestants are going to be Nora Ali and our guest, Amanda Mull. How about that?

Nora Ali: Woohoo. 

Amanda Mull: Great.

Scott Rogowsky: Okay. Let's go. Qumero numero one here. Which of these items is not an actual product included on Goop's wellness gift guide? Okay. Is is A, smart cupper therapy massage device. B, the home coat. C, collagen infused Italian boar bristle dry brush, or D, the pink oyster mushroom spray and grow kit. 

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: Which of these is not. So three are actual products in the Goop wellness gift guide. No Googling here. The big reveal for question one, Amanda, your answer.

Amanda Mull: I think it's D.

Scott Rogowsky: D, pink oyster--

Nora Ali: The oyster thing? 

Scott Rogowsky: ...mushroom spray and grow kit. And Nora, your answer?

Nora Ali: Mine, my guess was C because it was a nice, lovely, long answer. That sounds like someone made it up. 

Scott Rogowsky: Well, Nora, it sounds made up because it is made up. The collagen infused Italian boar bristle brush is not part of Goop's inventory and it's not part of this world. It's technically not a real thing.

Scott Rogowsky: Q2. What does the rainbow mat do? The rainbow mat, and I will give you a hint here. It is priced at $1,299.

Nora Ali: Holy moly.

Scott Rogowsky: Final sale. No returns can be made on the... This says, it says very clearly all sales final on the rainbow mat. What does it do? You have four options. Is it filled with seven types of natural gemstones, amethyst, sodalite, blue lace agate, green aventurine, yellow aventurine, cornelian, and red jasper that heat up to become a hot stone surface to help you relax and ease tension in the body? Does it use red and blue LED light to help minimize lines, clear breakouts, calm redness, and rejuvenate tired skin? Is it a full-body mask made with prebiotics, marine collagen, seaweed, and edelweiss extracts and hyaluronic acid to help smooth the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, brighten plump and deeply nourish the skin? Or is it a comfy, quilted, marshmallow like, horizontal robe made of fluffy french terry on the outside and insanely soft t-shirt jersey on the inside plus deep front pockets for phone storage?

Scott Rogowsky: Amanda, let's hear it.

Amanda Mull: I think it's the first one. 

Scott Rogowsky: The first one. You're going with A, why are you going with that?

Amanda Mull: Because it's the only thing that sounded like a mat. 

Scott Rogowsky: Okay. Power to deduction.

Amanda Mull: And also it has a bunch of different gemstones in it, which is maybe where the rainbow comes from, and it's expensive, which people will spend a lot of money for stuff with rocks.

Nora Ali: Amanda's logic is much more sound than mine. I chose, I don't remember which letter it was, but the full body mask, because-

Scott Rogowsky: Full body mask, yep.

Nora Ali:

That's the only thing to me that would require you to not be able to return it because you're putting it on your body.

Scott Rogowsky: That's smart.

Nora Ali: So that's why no returns, even though it's $1,300.

Scott Rogowsky: I will say Amanda's powers of reasoning were superior in this case. It is the mat filled with seven types of natural gemstones.

Scott Rogowsky: Here it is, just for funsies, question three. What are some of the reported, active ingredients in the martini, emotional, detox, bath soak. Are they pharmaceutical-grade epsom salts, chia seed oil, passion flower, velarium root, myrrh, Australian sandalwood, and wild crafted frankincense? Are they three types of clay? Kaolin, bentonite, and montmorillonite? Are they five mineral rich salts, Himalayan pink, dead sea, Celtic sea, New Zealand, solar salt, and epsom salt? Are the active ingredients a 1,000 milligram blend of full spectrum, functional mushroom extracts from cordyceps, turkey tail, reishi, maitake, shiitake, and royal silk?

Nora Ali: What?

Scott Rogowsky:

Woo. This is a mouthful. This is a lot. It's an emotional detox bath soak, emotional detox.

Nora Ali: I feel like I need emotional detox after hearing all those answers.

Amanda Mull: I have some bad news, which is that I know the answer to this one because I have this in my bath. 

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: You are a Gooper!

Amanda Mull: It is one of the products I used for the story that I wrote on Goop.

Scott Rogowsky: Did it work?

Amanda Mull: Well, define work. The answer is the first one, with the frankincense-

Nora Ali: You didn't even let me guess. You didn't even give you a shot, Amanda.

Amanda Mull: Oh, sorry.

Scott Rogowsky: With the frankincense and myrrh, not the gold though. They left the gold out of it. So two of the wise sons, two of the wise, what are they, sons?

Amanda Mull: Wise men.

Scott Rogowsky: Wise men.

Amanda Mull: Wise guys.

Scott Rogowsky: Two of those men had their, yeah, those wise guys got a couple of their wares in there, but not the gold. Well you done Goop the quiz here, Amanda, as we expected you to do here. Nora, I don't doubt you. It's a moral victory for Nora.

Nora Ali: Thank you I enjoyed it. I enjoyed myself. That's what matters.

Amanda Mull: I know all of this stuff, but at what cost?

Scott Rogowsky:At what cost, exactly. You're doing good work, Amanda, continuing to keep the world honest. Keep us all on our toes when it comes to this stuff, because look, I'm a sucker for this stuff, and Nora, we're going to talk. We'll talk later.

Nora Ali: Amanda, this was so fun. Amanda is a staff writer for The Atlantic, an expert in all things wellness and Goop. She knows all the things. Amanda, thank you so much for your time.

Amanda Mull: Thank you so much for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: And now, BC listeners, we want to hear from you. We love hearing from you and we're always working upcoming episodes, so let us know what you want us to talk about. You know, pitch us an idea, right? What do you want to hear the business of? What do you want to go behind the scenes of? What influencer, thinker, celebrity, CEO, CMO, whoever the hell, do you want us to talk to. Let us know. Email us at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's BIZcasualpod, with your thoughts. 

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from, so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is produced with all natural ingredients by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Alan Haburchak is director of audio Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear celery. And we'd love it if you'd give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. 

Nora Ali: Keep it business-

Scott Rogowsky:  And keep it casual.