June 16, 2022

The Biz Behind Live Music & Festivals with Concert Promoter Peter Shapiro

Making sure the music never stops


Nora and Scott chat with independent concert promoter and music entrepreneur Peter Shapiro. He talks about his career as the founder and operator of several historic venues including Brooklyn Bowl, The Capitol Theatre, Garcia’s and Wetlands Preserve. Peter’s new book titled, “The Music Never Stops: What Putting on 10,000 Shows Has Taught Me About Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Magic” will be published by Hachette Books on August 2. For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out grayscale.com/businesscasual

 

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Video Editors: Mckenzie Marshall and Christie Muldoon

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at https://businesscasual.fm

 

Transcript

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now, let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: Scott, this one was exciting for you. Am I right?

Scott Rogowsky: This was cool, this was cool for me.

Nora Ali: You're a Deadhead, a Phish head. All of it.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh, yeah. Peter and I are kindred spirits, fellow travelers. Really, he is legendary in the world of jam bands, in the music scene. If you're not in that world, you maybe don't know him. But this is a man who opened up venues and ran venues that are the staples, the backbone of the scene. Scenes don't exist without Wetlands in the '90s fostering those early bands. The spinoffs, the offshoots from the Grateful Dead tour, which he talks about. It doesn't exist without Brooklyn Bowl and all the new Brooklyn Bowls and the Capitol Theatre springing up. These festivals, Lockn' Festival, the Jammy Awards. He created an award show to award jam bands. Relix Magazine, which has been published for 20-plus years. I mean, I used to subscribe to Relix Magazine in high school.

Nora Ali: Wow!

Scott Rogowsky: It would come with little free CDs, with samplers every month with new music. Promoting new artists, celebrating new music, and keeping it alive. Without that, there'd be so many fewer bands out there, so much less joy in the world. This man is responsible for really so much happiness and so much good music.

Nora Ali: True.

Scott Rogowsky: In my opinion, good music, others might disagree. But this is talking to rock and roll royalty right here. This was a fun one.

Nora Ali: Oh, my goodness. I think the types of concerts you've attended in your life are the opposite of the types of concerts I've attended in my life, because I am all about the orchestra concerts, classical music, chamber orchestra. But a lot of what he said still resonated in terms of the experience. It's not just about the music. It's the bathrooms, it's the security, it's the bars.

Scott Rogowsky: The lines at the bar. Right, exactly.

Nora Ali: Yeah, at the bar and everyone can relate to that. It sounds like he has every piece of it top of mind and that's why he's been able to thrive.

Scott Rogowsky: You go to Carnegie Hall, is that where you see shows? Is that mostly where you hang out?

Nora Ali: That's not every Friday night, but I've been to Brooklyn Bowl. I've gone to concerts at venues like that and also smaller venues.

Scott Rogowsky: But these old movie vaudeville theaters and movie palaces from the '20s and '30s that have been lovingly restored and refurbished, we didn't really talk about what it takes to do that, but it's millions of dollars to take these old theaters from the '20s, rehab them. Put the best in show, best in class music and lighting. There's just so many technological retrofitting that needs to be done. It's a massive undertaking to do what he did. We're all thankful for it.

Nora Ali: A costly business and obviously, a business that has struggled a lot and completely shut down for a while at least, during the pandemic. But the good news is live music is back, festival season is in full swing, and that's why it was extra exciting to talk to independent music entrepreneur and promoter Peter Shapiro.

Over the course of his career, Peter has owned and operated historic venues like Scott mentioned, including Brooklyn Bowl and its locations in Las Vegas, Nashville, and Philadelphia. The Capitol Theatre, Garcia's, and Wetlands Preserve. In 2015, he produced Fare Thee Well, celebrating 50 years of the Grateful Dead at Levi Stadium in Santa Clara, California, and Chicago's Soldier Field. He's also the publisher of Relix Magazine and the chairman of Headcount, a nonprofit that partners with musicians and festivals to register fans to vote. Peter's new book, titled The Music Never Stopped: What Putting on 10,000 Shows Has Taught Me About Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Magic, will be published by Hachette Books on August 2nd.

We'll get to our conversation with Peter, the legend, after this quick break.

Scott Rogowsky: Peter Shapiro, a pleasure to have you on the podcast here. So much to get into with you. This new book out, The Music Never Stopped. Well, let's start at the beginning here, because what's most fascinating about your story to Nora and myself is how you went from a fan of music to being one of the biggest names in the business of music. Look, so many kids out there look at a Peter Shapiro or go to a concert and say, "Oh man, I'd love to own my own venue. How cool would that be?" It's cool, but it's also very difficult, as you describe. Let's get into that beginning stages of what got you into this music. Did it all start with that first Phish show in December of '92 at the Vic?

Peter Shapiro: Well, that was one of them, that was the key one. By the way, my favorite part is still being at the show. I mean, that's the good part. The stuff during the day is tough, where you have to deal with all the HR, the work, the preparing, the booking, the problems. A lot of what I do is dealing with problems. But anyways, I think a lot of people at age 20, 21 have these moments. For me, I went to some shows in high school. More Jane's Addiction, My Bloody Valentine, senior in high school. I was not just a music head, though. Even at university, I was playing Frisbee, hanging out, I went to a Dead show, didn't think twice about it. But at the show, they brought this spoken word guy out. This is March of '93 in Chicago, and I just had this moment and I left the show. It was really heavy for me. More wandering in spirit, it was towards the end of the show. I left my friends, I don't know how I found them because there's no cell phones in '90. I didn't have one. What did you do when you left your friends? End up in the parking lot, snowing, Chicago. I look around and there's all these kids in drum circles. My age, probably, about 20. Not going back to Northwestern, not going home that night, on the road, seeking something, having fun.

Scott Rogowsky: Who don't even have a ticket to the show, by the way. They just show up. They try to get a miracle, they try to get that ticket into the show, but they'll just hang out in the parking lot all night.

Peter Shapiro: You nailed it. By the way, no ticket to the show. And I went to the library to see what films have been done, I was a film student, on this scene, traveling with the Grateful Dead. I had never seen anything like it. I went two months later, it was in March, and probably in May, June, I went with another kid who had a video camera. We rented a van and went on summer tour. We made a film about these kids who were on tour with the band. I couldn't get any member of the band to do an interview with me, which is ironic because I later then put on their 50th anniversary reunion show, I did it in Chicago. I had a Sliding Door moment, which is that movie whether you get on the train or you don't, because I went to that Dead show. I do believe this, I was not on a path to start becoming a rock promoter. I was not going to become a concert promoter, I don't think.

But because I went to that show and I had this moment, I saw these kids in the parking lot, I went to the library and started researching what films had been done and I went to make my own. Then the owner of Wetland's, a very famous rock club in New York that was built on the spirit of the Grateful Dead, saw my film where I had gone on the road, interviewing the kids. Then I got Ken Kesey and Tim Leary and Wavy Gravy and people around the band, and the owner of Wetlands gave me the club from that film.

Nora Ali: But what was it ultimately about the business of music that got you interested in that side, versus just attending these shows and feeling those experiences? What drew you to the business side of it?

Peter Shapiro: I mean, you have to have the business side, it's just a reality. To have that magic moment and the fun, you have to book the show, you have to have the venue, you have to have a staff, you have to sell tickets, you got to promote the show. I say sometimes to kids who work with me, for me, interns actually, younger kids, that if you put on a show for 50 people, a lot of the things you have to do are similar to a show with 50,000.

Scott Rogowsky: Just more toilets.

Peter Shapiro: You just need more toilets, more of everything. I mean, it gets harder, security. Then we have to do the show. Do the sound check, the advancing of the band, getting people in, taking the tickets, putting on the show and then settling the show after, maybe selling some T-shirts. That's all stuff you do with 50,000 or 50. The business thing, I didn't love that, it just comes with it. You can't get the magic, fun part without the other part. I just happen to have skipped the line, making this Dead film and the owner of Wetlands seeing it.

Like Scott said, people are sometimes, young kids, like, "I want to do what you do," but you have to find your own path there. I do encourage people, you can start it on your own. You can do it and learn all those parts, doing it really small. I just happened to skip the line with Wetlands.

Scott Rogowsky: Clearly, something inside you at that moment, I mean, when Larry said, "Here, you want to take over Wetlands?" You could have said, "No, I'm only 24, 25. This is crazy, I've never booked a show." I mean, had you booked shows before? You said you were a filmmaker, the films led you to this.

Peter Shapiro: Yeah, you're right. I didn't know anything, I was 23. I was an intern in New York, I lived at home and so I was able to do the internship thing. I just had a feeling, Wetlands was a unique place. You got to follow your gut and I knew this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. He gave it to me and I paid him monthly over four years, installment payments. Jerry Garcia died in August of 1995, so this is all around the same time. It just brings the conversation back, we talked about all those kids who turned 20, whether they're in Boulder or Portland or Chicago. I was like, "Those kids are not going to just disappear because Jerry died, they're going to splinter off," and that created the jam band world. That whole scene starts after Jerry dies.

The Grateful Dead were the number one touring band in music. When you take that away, there's still all these people who want to see these shows. But some of them went into the jazz world, the Medeski Martin and Woods. Some went more bluegrassy with String Cheese Incident. Some went to Phish, some went more southern rock with Government Mule or Black Rose. Some went more a little electronic jam, like Disco Biscuits, Sound Tribe, at that point. So it splintered off and I was like, "Wow, Wetlands, this home for this music in New York might actually see a birth, because all these people who just went to Grateful Dead shows are now going to need to find that fix of live music."

That does not go away, when we talk about that magic feeling, and that's what happened. I was there from '95 to '01, and there was this really active scene of bands, and when it came to the East coast, Wetlands was the home. I was young, I had no kid. I lived with other people, kept it low cost and stayed late. When the band would come off stage, I was there with tequila shots. That's how you can make friends. I made a lot of friends, I was a good club owner. It's harder now. I was lucky to do it when you're young, you can be there. You need to put the reps in, the time in.

Nora Ali: Peter, I love that in your book you wrote about those early days and you wrote that there were about 50 people working at Wetlands and you were younger than all of them, to your point. You had gotten advice that when you take over an existing business, you're supposed to fire everyone, re-interview them, and then rehire the ones who seem worthy, which doesn't feel like something a 23, 24-year-old should be doing. What did work best for you when taking over the existing business? Any advice there for young entrepreneurs out there related to that?

Peter Shapiro: Well, I did not follow that advice. A lot of it's follow your gut, dealing with people, trusting people, empowering people, delegating, being a benevolent dictator, is a good way to run a business because everyone knows where the answer comes from. I don't have a committee, there's not three cofounders or five. That can get tricky, because decisions go boom. That's worked for me. I've never raised lots of money and outside and have lots of investors, that stuff's all tricky. I think a reason why I've been able to do a lot is because it's me and then I trust a lot to the people around me and I let them do their thing.

Nora Ali: You're hiring people who maybe are smarter than you in certain aspects so you can focus on the creative, the music, the stuff you love.

Peter Shapiro: Yeah, another one is I'll take 94%, not always looking for 98%, 99%. What I mean by that is at Wetlands, I stayed till the band was done. We said before, 1:00 or 2:00. I did the tequila shot, but then I would go home so I could wake up the next day at a reasonable hour and work on my films, other things. I probably lost a little something by not being there through the night with the settlement and the money and all that. But that would've required me to stay until 5:30am and then I couldn't have gotten up and worked on my film.

Scott Rogowsky: Peter, let's take a quick break here, but more about your fascinating life story when we return.

We're talking about your early days, Peter, when you were taking over Wetlands. But today, you've got this empire. Four Brooklyn Bowls; Vegas, Philly, Nashville, and the flagship in Brooklyn, New York. I've seen many a show there. The Capitol Theatre in Port Chester. I was there night one, Dylan, 10 years ago this September, Peter.

Peter Shapiro: September 4, 2012. Props, bro. I didn't know you were there, nice.

Scott Rogowsky: I was there. I couldn't get in, but I bought the posters. My buddy Mike and I bought the posters.

But I want to hear about this transition. Again, Nora's getting at the sense of business operations and what it takes to actually run this business. It sounds like a lot of it is hiring. Who are those first people that you hire when you were 23, 24, that you could trust and how did you find those people? And are they still working with you all these years later? Because I assume as you expand and scale, you want to take your lieutenants, right? Okay, now we're running Wetlands, now we're going to Brooklyn Bowl, you're going to run this. Now we're opening Vegas, you're going to be running Vegas. You've got to have your people in all these different cities, all these different venues and the festivals and all that. How did you find these first people and what do you look for in someone?

Peter Shapiro: Well, the people that were there. A lot was working at Wetlands when I came in so it was, I was fortunate to get to take over this preexisting thing. Now, when we opened Nashville we were able to have the top people, the leading managers from all the different cities visit Nashville and spend time with the new team in Nashville to show them how we do. Because Wetlands was unique, it was not a classic music venue with great sight lines. Everyone watching this in their local town has a venue that's like our Bowery Ballroom in New York. You can go through them, but where you stand there in a hall, 1,000 cap, and it's just perfect sight line to the stage and that's it. You go watch the show and you leave. It's great though.

Wetlands had all these unique curves. On a sold out show, 30% to 40% of the people, 30% couldn't see the stage. It was curved and there was a basement. But by the way, you'll find this interesting, so we had to work harder because we didn't have the traditional sight lines, because you couldn't really see the show. We had to create a vibe. A lot of people would come up to me and be like, "Hey dude, I met my wife at Wetlands because we were at some sold out show and we went to the back by the bar, or we went downstairs to the basement," where we had the sound. You could hear the show everywhere at Wetlands really well. You just couldn't always see it, but that caused you to go move around and maybe be somewhere where you'd be standing next to someone and you'd say, "Hey," or you'd talk to them and you'd meet someone and you'd have a beer with them.

If you go to the perfect room, I don't think at Bowery Ballroom a lot of people met their wife or their husband, which is this room in New York that's perfect. But you go in, you watch the show, and then you go home. At Wetlands, it was more of a village. Things were moving, you had to move around and because of those challenges in a way, it's what made it in its own way so great. I took a lot of that energy that we had to do, the one small thing that we did on our jackets at Brooklyn Bowl, it doesn't say security on the security jacket on the back. It says "Welcome," and that's a small thing, but subtle, but important. I believe that all the small things are important. They do have the influence in how you experience a show.

So we tried to bring some of the stuff that I had to do at Wetlands because the room was challenging, and then we created Brooklyn Bowl, which the idea was to have the great sight lines that Bowery Ballroom has, but also make the village. Different areas, the food, so you could hopefully still maybe meet your wife, but also get to see the show also.

Scott Rogowsky: I've met three ex-wives there.

Nora Ali: Three ex-wives. Peter, the ideal experience is different obviously based on venue and you're an expert at creating those vibes. And you're known for just perfecting the live music experience, whatever the venue might be. Let's zoom out a little. What is the perfect live music experience if you had to summarize it in a couple sentences?

Peter Shapiro: I think things like the experience in the bathroom matters. If there's enough of them so you don't want to wait on line for 14 minutes during the show, miss a song, that's not ideal. If you can go in and it's a cool vibe in there and clean, it doesn't have to be perfect, but not crap on the floor, literally. That's not cool. Then the experience at the bar, whatever you're having, a Coke or a drink, easy, smiling face, cool vibe. I go back to vibe, it's an important word, you know what I mean? Air temperature is right, not too hot. Wetlands was tough, didn't have full on air conditioning that worked all the time. By the way, a sweaty show has its own thing. But the sight line, the divide, I tried to create this thing…And at the Capitol Theater, it's also a perfect venue. I didn't build it, built in 1926 by Thomas Lamb, it's 2,000 cap. We can put seats in, it's 1,500. We can remove the seats on the floor and go 2,000. I added a space, Garcia's, to give it that hang, that vibe, so you could meet your wife. Really, these theaters were built for 1920s, come see a vaudeville show. They were not built for a concert with two openers, four hours and four beers. That's why sometimes you'll go to a theater show and wait online at the bathroom. That's part of what I meant, Nora. A lot of times I'm sure people watching know, they go to a show in a theater and it wasn't built to see rock and roll. It was built for a sit down theater experience where the audience was not getting up in the middle to buy more drinks, so there's less bathrooms. We laugh, but that's big, real stuff.

Nora Ali: This is the stuff that if you don't work in the live music business, you don't think about the importance of security, the bathrooms, the bars, all these other things that aren't even related to the music itself. I think that's so interesting that you, as someone who wants to make the experience great overall, have to think about those things. Might not be as fun, but you have to think about it.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, and I think reducing friction for a customer at a show is a huge part. I remember going to Bonnaroo in 2004, Peter, I know you're not involved with...

Peter Shapiro: I was there.

Scott Rogowsky: You were there, but you weren't putting it on. But I got to tell you, Peter, I left the second day. I was so furious because I just bought an orange juice at one of their vending tents and then I attempted to walk into the venue with it and they said, "You can't bring in drinks." I just bought this thing. Paid $10 for this orange juice, now you're not letting me walk into the music area with it. I couldn't bring the chair. I said, "We're leaving. I'm done, we're out of here. This sucks." It was so hot. But those little things, Peter, it turned me off to the whole festival experience, frankly. I really haven't gone to a festival since.

Nora Ali: Well, I think now is another good time for a quick break. More with Peter when we come back.

Peter, let's get into the economics a little bit more of putting on concerts at all. You wrote in the book about this uneven risk exposure in the concert industry where the promoter pays this guarantee to a headliner. They're entitled to keep that money, regardless of how many people show up. Can you walk us through some of the basic costs and risks you're taking on as a promoter, and maybe even use the example of when you wrote about losing 10% of your bank account two weeks after you took over Wetlands. How did all that go down?

Peter Shapiro: Being a concert promoter is not a great business model. You have to really want to do it. Don't do it if you're looking just to make money, it's not the right thing. Because the fundamental model is you can make one and lose 10, basically. Especially with climate, weather and stuff, just weird stuff can happen. You can lose all your money because you also have to guarantee the band. I'm actually working on something now where a guy was going to have a party with a band in a few months and then he decides for some reason he can't do the party. He has to pay the band half the money, their scale fees.

Now if you're doing a deal, if we were like, "Let's go put on a show at the local bar," we might tell that bar owner, we would try at least to be like, "Yo, let us have your room for free or maybe we'll cover some basic costs of security dude or sound guy because we're going to bring in all these people who are going to drink at your bar." They keep the bar, but we really get the tickets at the door. We, the promoter, and then we have to give some to the band. But you try to make some money off the door. It's a tough game, that's why you see a lot of sponsorship stuff. Also, there's a lot of advantage to being the big guy.

That's why there's only a couple of companies who really do this and really only two who do it nationally, Live Nation, you've probably heard of, and AEG. But there's not a lot of companies who go around America putting on shows because it's such a hard business. Also, you're competing, it's really hard to compete with Live Nation because they have venues in 100 cities here in America and around the world. They would say to a band, if the three of us were trying to book a band, we'd be like, "Okay, let's do this gig at this club. We'll give you $10 grand." It's a 1,000 cap room, we're going to do tickets at $30 bucks. If it sells out it's $30 grand, they'll get a bunch of bonus because the artist always gets most of the money.

But Live Nation would then call that band. Let's say we had it at the Finish Line, 1,000 cap show, renting a venue, the band wants to do it. The booker from Live Nation, or it could be AEG, could say to that band, "Well, hold on a sec. You're going to go play New York with these guys, with Scott, Nora and Peter. But if you do that, you're going to lose your gig with us in Boston and Chicago and Cleveland and Dayton and all these." They have the ability to—

Scott Rogowsky: Extortion.

Peter Shapiro: Extortion, or more cities. Listen, that's true with probably movies and all types of stuff with scale. They can say to the band, "Yo, I'm going to book you 20 times in 20 cities, but I'm not going to give you $10 grand, we're going to give you $8,000. But we're going to guarantee you that $160 grand up front. It's less per show, it's only $8 grand a show. These guys, Scott, Nora and Peter, offer you $10,000, but that's just $10 grand, we're $180. What do you want to take?" It can be a challenging game. Now with Brooklyn Bowl, it's helpful that I have New York, Philly, Nashville, Vegas. I've had to work with AEG and Live Nation and Madison Square Garden sometimes. Some of my stuff, I say it's like a playground. Sometimes I want to go down the slide alone, but sometimes you want to go down the slide on the back of the big guy. Especially when you're playing big boy stuff and you can get whacked doing a festival, especially in the last few years with climate. Obviously, climate change is real, but things come through now, weird weather. I'm serious, this is real world. Climate change has impacted live music, because if you're a festival person and you're on your own like me, you can get whacked by some weird weather thing. Then everyone's like, "Okay, I bought tickets, there was weird weather, lightning. You couldn't do it today," a four day festival, you lose a day. "I want my money back." The band still wants to get paid, you still got to pay the staging guy and all the staging crew who built the stage, even if you didn't use it. I don't want—

Scott Rogowsky: Curve ball, curve ball, Peter.

Peter Shapiro: That's the hard part. But then if you put on the show and you're standing there and the band's playing and the fans are rocking, that's magic. That's why—

Scott Rogowsky: Makes it all worth it.

Peter Shapiro: Yeah, I'm still doing it.

Nora Ali: Well, I just want to know how it went wrong early on because you did write you lost 10% of your bank account.

Peter Shapiro: Oh yeah, I did. One of the first shows I did, he passed away, so I guess I could talk about it. Marty Balin from Jefferson Airplane was my first show at Wetlands when I first took over and we got crushed. I lost 10% of my bank account that one night. I was like, "This—"

Scott Rogowsky: People didn't show?

Peter Shapiro: Yeah, just didn't buy tickets. By the way, that's one reason I like the Brooklyn Bowl model. Brooklyn Bowl is definitely a creation of someone who came from just a traditional rock club. A traditional rock club, you sell the tickets, people come, or they don't come. Brooklyn Bowl, we put in this bowling and other revenue streams. We never can have a complete tank because hopefully we have a few bowling lanes going and sell some food. We made the economic model by having some additional places to bring revenue in. Fundamentally better. Nora, it's a tough business, but you do it because once you feel that magic that you've put on and you help people feel, that's addictive, that's addictive.

Scott Rogowsky: Beautiful, beautiful. Well, to really bring it on home here, Peter, we're going to wrap it up with Quizness Casual, the Business Casual quiz. For today's quiz, Peter, we're talking all about that iconic music festival, Woodstock 1969, the original. The original, which you and I were both too young. We were all too young to experience, but Nora is also here. Okay, here we go. Qumero numero uno. Which of the following was an alternative name for Woodstock? Was it the Aquarian Music Festival, Farmapalooza, the Bethel Music and Art Experience, or the Bethel Open Air Festival?

Peter Shapiro: It's either one, first or last. I'm going to go with one.

Nora Ali: Aquarian.

Scott Rogowsky: Aquarian Music Festival.

Nora Ali: Sounds nice.

Scott Rogowsky: You are correct, sir.

Peter Shapiro: Aw, shucks. For once.

Scott Rogowsky: (singing) Aquarius, aquarius! All right, good job on Q1, here's Q2. Who was the first act to officially sign on to play Woodstock? The Who, Joe Cocker, Creedence Clearwater Revival, or Jimi Hendrix?

Peter Shapiro: Ooh, not sure. I'll go Cocker.

Scott Rogowsky: Go Cocker. Getting a little cocky here. No, it was CCR. Reportedly the first act to sign a contract, for roughly $10 grand. All right, final question here about Woodstock. The festival was supposed to draw 50,000 attendees. How many people actually showed up that weekend, approximately? Twenty-five thousand, 100,000, 270,000, or 400,000?

Peter Shapiro: Four.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah.

Peter Shapiro: If I had just gotten Creedence, I'd be three for three, Scotty.

Nora Ali: Pretty good.

Scott Rogowsky: You're close, but hey, two out of three ain't bad.

Peter Shapiro: I'll take it.

Scott Rogowsky: The biggest problem with Woodstock, Peter, that you've learned—not enough toilets.

Peter Shapiro: Yes, obviously.

Scott Rogowsky: Hundred toilets for 400,000 people.

Nora Ali: What? Wow!

Scott Rogowsky: Major mistake, but hey, I guess you didn't really need it. People didn't actually use the facilities, they made their own toilets in the open air of Bethel, New York.

Nora Ali: One last time for our listeners, the book is titled, The Music Never Stopped: What Putting on 10,000 Shows Has Taught Me About Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Magic. That is out on August 2nd. On that note, Peter, thanks again for joining us on the podcast. We enjoyed your time.

Peter Shapiro: Thanks guys, it was fun.

Scott Rogowsky: We love hearing from our Business Casual fam, so hit us up. Let us know about your favorite shows, your first concerts. Mine was Phil Lesh, 2001 at the Beacon. I shared, now you share. Email us at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod, that's B-I-Zcasualpod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old-fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from, so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is, guess what? Produced and promoted by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Sarah Singer's our VP of multimedia. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for your jams. We'd love it if you give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.