June 21, 2021

The bitcoin bull case with Michael Saylor

The bitcoin bull case with Michael Saylor

Michael Saylor, Co-Founder and CEO of MicroStrategy, joins us today to break down the bitcoin bull case.


Michael Saylor, Co-Founder and CEO of MicroStrategy, joins us today to break down the bitcoin bull case. Saylor, well known on Twitter for his bullish attitude towards bitcoin, led MicroStrategy to transition from holding cash to bitcoin. To date, the company has acquired nearly $3 billion in bitcoin. Today, Saylor breaks down why bitcoin is better than gold, what makes bitcoin the most successful tech of our generation, and the environmental concerns tied to bitcoin.

Transcript

Alex Lieberman:

Hey everyone, Alex here before today's episode, I want to remind you that our last episode for the summer will be a week from today. Monday, June 28th. The show is taking a break for a while. As we rethink and rebuild, we want to make this show better and we could use your help, whether you've listened to all 160 episodes or just started, we'd love to hear how you think we can improve. If you could do me a favor and email us your thoughts, we want to hear them positive and negative. So take a minute, jot them down and send an email to businesscasual@morningbrew.com.

 

Alex Lieberman:

And just in case, you're wondering about what you'll do without business casual all summer. Don't worry. We've got a great last few episodes coming your way. In addition to some special bonus content you can listen to for later this summer. Now here's the show: What's up, everyone. Welcome back to the scarce digital asset, which is this show business casual. I'm your host, Alex Lieberman. Let's get into it.

 

Alex Lieberman:

Let's say you bought Bitcoin sometime in April of this year. If so, your Bitcoin is probably worth somewhere between 30 and 50% less today, as you're listening to this episode and you might think, well, that's fine. Things lose value. Sometimes it's a normal part of investing and I'd say, you're right. If that's how people actually talked about Bitcoin, but when people talk about Bitcoin, they definitely don't just talk about it. Like investing in a volatile stock, depending on who you ask, it's the future of money. The human race is greatest technology or the best investment money can buy. It's also a cryptocurrency currency is in the name, this stuff we normally call currencies include the dollar Euro yen, the pound, all of which don't lose half their value in a day or so, if that sounds like an exaggeration, it's not Bitcoin lost more than half its value.

 

Alex Lieberman:

Over two days in 2020, and this kind of volatility happens a lot. Bitcoin plunged by around 50%, over eight weeks in early 2018. Then again in late 2018, the latter half of 2019, and also over the past eight weeks, that's a lot of volatility for something that a lot of people think very highly of not to mention issues with the environment and whether cryptocurrencies should even really be called that at all because let's face it. When was the last time you had the option to pay with crypto? All of that got us thinking about the arguments for and against crypto. What's the bull case. What about the bear case? If you wanted to hear the most optimistic and pessimistic cases for Bitcoin, so you could decide for yourself, what would they be?

 

Alex Lieberman:

That brings us to today's show it's the first episode in a pair of two on Bitcoin, the best case for it and the best case against it on today's episode, we're covering the case for it. And our guest is Michael Saylor. He's the co-founder and CEO of micro strategy. And you may have read about him in recent headlines, as his company has built up a Bitcoin position worth over $3 billion. In fact, just this week, micro strategy announced a major new stock sale and some of the proceeds will be used to buy even more Bitcoin. Michael, thanks so much for joining the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Alex. So you have been on quite the journey with Bitcoin over, I would say like the last year and a half to two years, I want to obviously get into a lot of the recent stuff.

 

Alex Lieberman:

Like the recent bond sale, $500 million worth of senior secured notes, but I want to step back and understand how did you get into this? What was the first experience you had finding out and learning about Bitcoin?

 

Michael Saylor:

You know, I, I probably learned about it around 2012 when lots of things were coming to life, but I just put it in a bucket of, oh, that's curious, you know, we all heard about silk road and Mount Gox and all the early, the early, you know, controversy. And I mean the big idea of peer to peer money. I think I got that, but I didn't really have a need for peer-to-peer money originally, you know, from 2012 to 2020, I just saw it as peer to peer money, but I didn't see as better money because I didn't have a crisis or lack of faith and my existing money.

 

Michael Saylor:

So Bitcoin was kind of an interesting, curious venture capital type thing until March of 2020. And in March of 2020, you know, the pandemic hit and we had the lockdowns and main streets shut down and wall street recovered when we call that, you know, the K shape recovery, which is kind of a euphemism for everybody that had billions of dollars of stocks and assets all had the best year of their life doing nothing. And everybody that worked for a living that had to ship pizzas and manufacture things and drive cars, they had the worst of their life. And if you did nothing, you had 30% more money at the end of the year, if you're on wall street, but if you're on main street and you generated 30% more cash flow at the end of the year, you accomplish nothing.

 

Michael Saylor:

And so, yeah, I lost a little bit of faith in the monetary system, somewhere between March and June. And I started scratching my head saying, why is it that there's one class of people in the world that are working as hard as they can, and everything seems stacked against them. And there's another class of people in the world that aren't working at all. And there's a tailwind blowing, you know, at their back. And it seems like it's a really good year for them. I've got the numbers for the last 12 months. If you look at the return of the S and P 500 is 38%. Okay. And that's what caused me to lose faith in a conventional treasury strategy. A conventional treasury strategy is the same as me saying, Alex, why don't you just take all of your life savings and put them in a bank account that yields 0% interest, basically,

 

Alex Lieberman:

That's what was happening with Micro S trategy. You had a shit ton of cash cash in the bank, and it was effectively losing value,

 

Michael Saylor:

$550 million in the bank generating 0% interest. And I was looking at what was going to be a 38% cost of capital, and let's turn it around. That means you lose 38% of your $550 million a year and four or five years, you've lost 75% of your wealth. I mean, if apple is sitting on a hundred billion dollars in cash and they had taken that and put it in the SNP, they would've generated $38 billion more. And so instead of having 138 billion, they have a hundred billion, they're out $38 billion, right? That's the cost of capital. And that's, you know, if you have a mega successful company like Facebook or apple, or in Google, you don't have to worry as much about it.

 

Michael Saylor:

They don't really care that much about it, but still it's $38 billion. I mean, it's sorta matters for micro strategy. We had a different situation because we had a $500 million revenue company with 550 million in cash. And I thought, well, maybe I should just invest it in the S and P 500. And so now we come back to Bitcoin and this is where I discovered Bitcoin. But now I discovered Bitcoin because I have a billion dollar problem because the world has come to a grinding halt. And because I'd lost faith and conventional wisdom, and I've lost faith in the currency.

 

Michael Saylor:

And that's what it takes before you open your eyes. And when I got to that point, I, you know, we were at the situation where we needed to, to decide what we're going to do. And the, and the obvious answer was let's go ahead and move the balance sheet into a scarce technical asset, which would go up in value faster than the rate at which the money supply. And we sorted through everything. And for a lot of technical reasons, we concluded Bitcoin was the, the apex property of the human race. It was the single most desirable asset in the world. And it was property, which made it better than buying Fang stocks or equity or ETFs or silver or gold or real estate or timber or anything else we could come up with, you know, or any other crypto we've we've.

 

Michael Saylor:

We found Bitcoin. And our conclusion was it's the best engineered monetary asset in the history of the human race. And it's on an open monetary protocol. So call it a digital property on an open monetary protocol. That means that anybody with money in the 21st century would want this thing. Anybody on earth could use this thing. You could move it at the speed of light, like lightning, or even a square or PayPal or apple pay or Google pay. You could materialize it instantly on 6 billion smartphones.

 

Michael Saylor:

And the idea that you could deliver property rights to 8 billion people at the speed of light using 21st century technology seemed pretty compelling when you combine it with the idea that you've got a decentralized protocol, that's going to cap this thing at 21 million Bitcoin, and it's going to put it outside of the reach or the corruptible influence of a company or a country or a regulator of any sort.

 

Alex Lieberman:

So let's talk about that for just one second, because one of the arguments against Bitcoin effectively becoming a store of value where people can retain the value of their capital is gold. The people call Bitcoin a digital gold and people say, okay, but why can I just buy gold? What is the breakdown in that argument?

 

Michael Saylor:

Yeah, that gold is like a bunch of kids in a playground using bottle caps for money or baseball cards or a bunch of kids using seashells. It's the best token you could come up with under the circumstances, but it's not that good. And here's why it's not that good. If I have a billion dollars and I buy a billion dollars of gold, I can't move it around. It has physical nexus. It weighs like 30,000 pounds. It's very heavy. I have to put it in a vault. And now, how am I going to secure it? Security of a billion dollars of gold.

 

Michael Saylor:

You know, you can only put it in a bank in New York or maybe London or, or Zurich or Singapore. There's a finite number of places. You can put it, I'm dependent upon the bank to secure it. I'm dependent upon the mayor of New York to secure it. I'm dependent upon the FBI to secure it. If any of them change their mind, they can take it and they can tax it and they can regulate it at any point. And so gold is hard to secure, easy to seize. You can't take custody of it. And, and historically it is always seized.

 

Alex Lieberman:

You're talking about a billion dollars worth of it. What about for the average consumer where it's a hundred thousand dollars worth of life savings?

 

Michael Saylor:

Yeah. It's even worse because as you go to smaller scale, you know, let's, let's go to anywhere in the south of $10,000, you're going to pay a 35% or 40% markup to buy the gold. And if you ever want to sell it, you're going to pay a 30% mark down to sell it. And it's going to take you four to six weeks to get it. Then you have to secure it. It's not practical for 8 billion people to actually store property and gold. And it's not right practical for businesses to trade and gold because it's not programmable, but there's a couple of other fundamental reasons. The second big problem with gold is that it's inflating at 2% a year. And so over the course of 30 years, you're certain to lose half the value of gold.

 

Michael Saylor:

And over the course of a hundred years, you're going to lose 85 to 90% of the monetary energy and the goal because we keep dumping more gold on the market, right? It's for example, if you were to buy a bunch of gold and it went up by a factor of 10, the rate of gold production would increase the rate of people melting down gold jewelry would increase, and that floods the market with supply. So what's the problem with gold. The problem with gold is a, it's a physical asset, which is not conservative. It's like using seashells and you're the richest kid on the beach. And after you own all the land on the beach, some dude wanders on the beach, like are these people are stupid enough to take seashells drives in his car to another beach, picks up a bunch of seashells, brings them back and takes all your stuff.

 

Michael Saylor:

Right? All of a sudden your seashells are worth a lot. You know, like if you're going to use something to allocate all the wealth in the world, you should use something that nobody can make more of. Yeah. So that's the problem with gold. The difference between gold and Bitcoin is you can take custody of $397, a Bitcoin or a billion of Bitcoin. And so 8 billion people can be self custodying, their own asset. And when you self custody, you rip it off the exchange or out of the bank, which means that you're not held hostage by the counter party. If you own gold. At the end of the day, the mayor, the governor, the bank, and the country all holds you hostage.

 

Michael Saylor:

If you own Bitcoin, you can actually move a billion dollars, a Bitcoin. And I use the word a billion just to illustrate. You can lose you move large amounts of it, but the same is true for a thousand dollars of Bitcoin, you can move it to any of a hundred thousand counter parties. And if you don't trust anybody on earth, you can trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, you can set up a multisignature arrangement with yourself and your wife and your dad. And, and there is no property on earth that gives you those kind of custodial rights. And so the natural consequences of that are you're enforcing a degree of integrity and virtue in the economy at the political level and at the corporate level that no other form of property can enforce.

 

Alex Lieberman:

So basically The two biggest things that you've illustrated is that first of all, gold is by nature. Inflationary. Bitcoin is deflationary 21 million, never going to be more created. And the other part is you don't have to trust that a party will do what they say they do over time, which given the history that you've illustrated, there is good reason to not necessarily trust counterparties, like government or corporations to do what they say they're going to do.

 

Michael Saylor:

And there's a third reason. Yeah, it's better. It's stronger money and you have better property rights, but it also has better technical properties. The future of the world is 8 billion people with a mobile phone doing billions of transactions an hour with each other at the speed of light, with computers that think a billion times a second. Yeah. You can't give 8 billion people, a thousand dollars of gold and move it at the speed of light. So you've got rural property in Kansas. You ever tried to borrow against that. Well, how many banks will make you alone against rural property in Kansas? Is that like one or two maybe.

 

Michael Saylor:

And what if you want to rent the property out to someone, how many people are going to offer to operate or farm that land in Kansas three? There's no liquidity. Okay. So what if I said, why don't you take that property and put it on a network and I'll give you 1 million bids an hour. Okay. Well, it turns out that the person that gives you the highest bid is a Russian trading through a Singapore exchange. And he'll give you 47% return on your money and, or you can get 4% return on your money. Right. But he only wants to use it for like eight hours.

 

Michael Saylor:

Okay. Well, that's okay. I'll take the money for the eight hours and then I'll find someone else eight hours from now. And so when you have a computer program, that's working a billion times an hour, while you're sleeping to make you money or to save you money, you got a better economy. And so fundamentally Bitcoin is property for a 21st century cyber economy. If your goal is to build the 21st century economy, you need property that you can program on an open protocol. That's beyond corruption by a government or a company. And that's what Bitcoin is. So

 

Alex Lieberman:

On that note, so we, we talked about kind of, you know, one of the biggest concerns just by people is around gold. Let's talk about just your views on government regulation for a second. A lot of people outside of just China, which obviously has shared their perspectives on regulating mining, the U S what, what are your thoughts on just like the U S being able to regulate Bitcoin and also taxation of Bitcoin transactions, will it never happen? And

 

Michael Saylor:

My thought is that tax code and regulations are going to change by municipality, by state and by federal district. And by use case everywhere in the world all the time forever. And there's always going to be a worst place and a better place. And so the reason that you don't want to take all your money and buy a building in California is because for the next hundred years, you will be slave to the tax code of the state of California, the regulations of the city, that the building is in the views of the United States, federal government. And you will have to finance or sell that property to another person who is slave to that jurisdiction.

 

Michael Saylor:

So you can see how the property value is impaired because you have geographic political nexus and physicality. If I could take that property, dematerialize it to cyberspace, then I can change political nexus. I can, I don't have physicality and I can change physical nexus. And so your optionality on the property is the highest, which means it is least likely to be impaired. Now it is the truth, for example, that a American citizen, can't just not pay income tax big. Even if you went to Singapore with your Bitcoin, you still low income tax for 10 years after you surrender your passport, but that's not, but that's not true with regard to a European citizen, which means that it's possible that when the tax rate, when there's a property tax on us, Bitcoin of 2%, you'll have the option to sell it to someone in Switzerland the next day.

 

Michael Saylor:

And they won't be impaired, and that will pay you more for that Bitcoin. But if you call that person in Switzerland and say, Hey, I have a really nice building in LA and the property taxes went to 5%. They're going to look at you. Like I can't move the building to Switzerland. And why would I want to pay the 5%? And I'm not moving to LA. So you have higher level property rights and property, less likely to be impaired when you have digital property. And, and so instead of trying to figure out what's going to happen in the world, which is impossible, just ask yourself the question. Would you rather have speed and portability and optionality and your future, or would you rather be buried up to your knees and concrete?

 

Michael Saylor:

And it was pretty odd, you know, like it's pretty obvious which of the two things is more likely to survive in a volatile environment.

 

Alex Lieberman:

Yeah. So I get how you think about this as a large investor, but what about for the average professional on a salary or the typical retail trader the end of the day, most people can't stomach a 40 to 50% swing in the price of an asset, especially when they have to pay for typical things in life. If you're just the normal retail investor, how are you thinking about

 

Michael Saylor:

This? You've got a certain amount of money you need this year. And the next 12 months let's call it working capital. And my company has $50 million. We keep $50 million in us dollars as working capital. And I think our model suggests that there's like a 99% probability that we won't need more than $50 million. There's a 1% chance that we, something might happen. And that 1% chance we would liquidate one of our treasury assets like Bitcoin or borrow against it. And the 99% will just use our checking account and that's end dollars and that's losing one or 2% of its value a month. So, okay, well, so it's, you know, it's, it's a cost, but I'm just going to stomach the cost so that I've got the checking account.

 

Michael Saylor:

I think that you could define a portfolio as I have one set of my portfolio, which is longterm, and I just want a long-term store value. Long-term is gotta be more than four years. You know, if you, if you want the money in four weeks or four months is not long-term. But if you, if you have stuffed at money that you want to hold for a decade or two decades or three decades, then you put that into the highest quality property you can find. I would designate Bitcoin as extremely high quality, long duration property. There's another bucket of money that people like to invest, right? I want to buy Peloton or zoom or apple or Google or Facebook.

 

Michael Saylor:

Maybe you want to invest in some stock or stock like instrument or application, but, you know, with an investment thing, you normally want to have something where you might make 10 extra money or lose half your money. Like that's a very simple algorithm, right? You know, I, Amazon lost like 80% or more of his value, many, many, many times. And the richest man in the world held the stock throughout the entire time because the, because he had conviction and his view was one day, retail will be digital. So if, if you want to be rich, then you're going to have to have conviction on a Facebook or an Amazon or an apple or a Google.

 

Michael Saylor:

And if you don't have conviction, then you're definitely not going to be rich. You could, you could argue the Bitcoin kind of qualifies as that right now, too. I mean, you could make 10 X your money. You could lose half your money, right? If, and if, if, if you've got that risk tolerance, then you could also put that into Bitcoin. And then the third bucket is I make investments. If I see a, an idea that I think is undervalued, that may go up by a factor of 10 and I've got conviction on it. Maybe I invest in it, but I know that it's risky. That's managing a portfolio of risk. And then the fourth is savings. And the savings ideas find the apex property.

 

Michael Saylor:

What is the thing that you think one day, every affluent, intelligent, educated person is going to want to own. And so that's how I think of it. I think everybody's got to allocate their portion of their portfolio. And I think that what the typical individual, what I would say is you really care about this stuff. Why don't you spend a hundred hours studying Bitcoin, go on hope.com or go take Bitcoin for everybody course, or take some of the other courses. If you really care, if you want to be rich or make money, take a thousand hours study at a thousand hours. Right? I mean like, what the heck else do you have to do with your time? Right? I mean, if you really, if you want to be successful, if you're spending one to 10 hours, you're just gambling.

 

Michael Saylor:

Okay. But I respect it. Like you want to go gamble on a basketball game. You want to go gamble on a random stock. You just place it in a different bucket then. Okay. It's okay. It's like, you want to go to Vegas and gamble? It's fun. Okay. Go, go have at it.

 

Alex Lieberman:

So there's, there's one last thing which is energy. Obviously like you've been spending a lot of time on this, and I think you're even hosting a discussion about it. This is of all the concerns, the one that I am least clear on right now, and I am diving into more. What are your current thoughts on the energy concerns around Bitcoin?

 

Michael Saylor:

I mean, most of the energy convert concerns are just FID that are thrown out by entrepreneurs that have invented a new crypto currency that doesn't use proof of work. And they're thinking that if I can just throw this up there, maybe someone will invest in my yo-yo coin.

 

Alex Lieberman:

So, so your view is that most of it is bullshit.

 

Michael Saylor:

Most of it is bullshit that the facts of the matter are Bitcoin's the most efficient use of energy, of any major industry in the world. There is no better use of energy. You put $4 billion of energy into Bitcoin. You get out $750 billion worth of market cap. You put $160 billion of energy into Google. You get out 1.6 trillion of market cap. Google's the second best. And it's, it's a 10 X and Bitcoin's like a 200 X. And then you put, you put like a billion dollars of energy in an S and P 500 stock. You get 4 billion in market cap. It's a Forex. And if you put a billion dollars of energy into an airline, you get out 40, you know, you get 40%, it's a 0.4 X.

 

Michael Saylor:

So if the human race is attempting to convert energy and to prosperity, this is the best use ever. And it is pretty obvious why Facebook and Google are moving around photos and videos. Bitcoin is moving a billion dollars. They're not equal. It's the most valuable use of energy that has the human race has yet to devise in terms of how much energy does it really use nothing. I mean, there's 160 terawatt hours of energy that gets generated by the civilization. 50 terawatt hours, 50 to 60 is wasted. So like 30% of all the energy is just waste. Energy.

 

Michael Saylor:

Bitcoin uses a hundred and hundred, maybe a hundred terawatt hours, maybe 120, probably a hundred terawatt hours. If you did do the math, you're talking about like 10 basis points, one 10th of 1% of the energy, but that's on a, on a kilowatt hour basis. It's more like two, one hundreds of a percent of the energy on an economic value basis. And it's like one quarter of a percent of the wasted energy in the world. If you got rid of all a Bitcoin, you wouldn't change anything. One, I owed it because for the most part, the energy that that runs the Bitcoin network is all recycled, stranded energy.

 

Michael Saylor:

You know, the commercial value of energy is like 10 cents kilowatt hour. And the residential, the consumer value is like 12 cents a kilowatt hour. Bitcoin miners up until this year were paying to 1 cent to 2 cents, a kilowatt hour. In some cases, zero they're either stealing the energy off the grid in Iran or in China where they're literally getting it for or getting it subsidized as a penny kilowatt hour, or they're taking energy. That's from stranded wasted, hydro electric power plants, where there's no buyer, no buyer. And so these, these miners just go to the edge of the grid. They find this power that nobody wanted.

 

Michael Saylor:

They converted into $750 billion worth of value. And so there's really no more disruptive force in the energy world, but there's no more disruptive force in the money world either because it's the most powerful technology of the 21st century. So when I hear the, the energy FID, I, you know, what I think is, you know, if it wasn't for that FID, Bitcoin would probably be worth 10 X as much as it is right now. You couldn't buy it for the price. You're buying it right now. And everybody's got to come up with something to say. So if I described the product on paper, an honest person with a college education would say, it looks like it's the perfect engineered solution to the money problem for the entire earth.

 

Michael Saylor:

It looks like it's probably the single most important thing on earth, perfectly engineered. It's the most valuable use of energy the human race has in the world. When you turn on a shot, 2 56 minor, the latest generation of the <inaudible> they generate about at 40 cents a kilowatt hour in revenue. Okay. I just told you, the average industry never pays more than 10 cents. Heavy industry wants to pay 1, 2, 3, 4 cents. So what you've got is a way to monetize any energy source at any, any frequency, any place. And there's one last interesting point, Alex, which is Google's the second past or Netflix, you know, or Facebook, they're the second best they've got data centers, just pure information, but they're engineered for triple redundancy.

 

Michael Saylor:

They need to be triply redundant, and they need to be high bandwidth because they're streaming a million high Def video streams into and out of the data center. A Bitcoin mine doesn't need to be triple redundant because at the end of the day, what you're doing is you're monetizing all the energy. I can monetize the entire volcano, the entire nuclear reactor, 1500 miles from civilization on an island in the middle of the Pacific. And I, and you can't do that at Google or Facebook or Amazon. And you can't do that with aluminum. Yeah. You can't do it with any industrial application of energy.

 

Michael Saylor:

So this is the single most powerful use of energy we have yet to devise in the history of the world. So, so the haters will say, oh, it uses too much energy. It was like, well, actually it converts energy into prosperity, more efficiently than anything the human mind has yet to devise. And you just don't understand it yet because you haven't taken a hundred hours thinking about it. You just kind of knee jerk react because you read a story and a headline. And now you're being asked for your comment and people, things that people don't understand, they fear, right. And when they fear something that they don't understand, they push back reflexively and I get it.

 

Michael Saylor:

Like I've been there. Everybody's been there. It's just, you don't have a problem. You don't understand it. You push back. It's pretty profound. If you think it's a speculative asset, you're dismissing it. And you're missing the biggest thing of the 21st century. If I took you back to 1910, and I said, I have this thing, electricity, and I think it's going to change the way we run cities. And it's going to find its way to all of our appliances. And one day it'll change a civilization. Instead of saying, it's a speculative asset. I'm not going to invest in it. You might want to just stop and study it and think about it really, really hard because it isn't a speculative asset.

 

Michael Saylor:

It's not even a financial decision. The recent people on wall street say that they get it all wrong is they're not engineers. And if they said it's an engineered monetary energy network to channel energy across time and space or property rights across time and space for the first time in the history of the world, then you would think, what is that? Yeah. What is that? Well, and, and 1890 people would have said, what is that? When you described electricity, what is that? That

 

Alex Lieberman:

Makes total sense. Just to run it all back, we've talked about the impact that Bitcoin does or does not have on the environment. We've talked about what it looks like in a world, which government regulates cryptocurrency and specifically Bitcoin. And we've talked about why it's important to have stores of value and why Bitcoin can be a really exceptional store of value. Michael Saylor. Thank you so much for your insights and your thoughts on the future of Bitcoin. Appreciate your time.

 

Michael Saylor:

Hey Alex, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

 

Alex Lieberman:

Business casual is produced and engineered by Daniel Marcus. Our researcher is Bella Hutchins. Our newsletter is written by Hannah Doyle. Alan <inaudible> is our executive producer. And I'm your host, Alex Lieberman. If you liked the show, make sure to rate and review us in your podcast. App evil really helps people find the show. You can also connect with us on Twitter at biz casual pod. That's at Bizz casual pod, and we want to hear from you. Who do you want us to talk to on the show? Drop us a note. Our email is business casual@morningbrew.com. Keep it casual and we'll be back on Thursday.