Aug. 15, 2022

Tapping into the Multi-Billion Dollar CBD Market

Brooke Shields and Brad Tipper on Prospect Farms


The CBD market is expected to soar to $19.5 billion in 2025, according to a forecast made last summer by the cannabis market research firm BDSA, and a lot of companies are looking to cash in on a trendy product. But CBD company Prospect Farms wants to bring standards and transparency to the space. CEO Brad Tipper and Chief Brand Officer Brooke Shields talk about why Prospect Farms is focused on the safety, sustainability, and efficacy in all of their products. For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out realvision.com/businesscasual

 

Host: Nora Ali

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Video Editor: Sebastian Vega

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at https://businesscasual.fm

Transcript

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, bringing you conversations with people you know, and some you may not know yet, to make business less intimidating. Because money talks, but it does not have to be dull. I'm your host, Nora Ali. Now let's get down to business.

The CBD market is expected to soar to $19.5 billion in 2025. That's according to a forecast made last summer by cannabis market research firm BDSA. And maybe that's not such a huge surprise, because it feels like a new CBD company or brand is popping up every day, with entrepreneurs eager to cash in on the growing market. But as our guests today told us, there is very little transparency on ingredients and sourcing when it comes to a majority of CBD products, even though words like "all natural" are thrown around a lot. It also may still feel fairly unclear as to what CBD can actually do for you. Are the effects real? What should you be using it for? Should you give it to your dog when she freaks out about fireworks on the 4th of July? 

Well, Prospect Farms is looking to bring clarity to all of that. The company is described as a premium seed to store wellness brand that offers organically grown CBD products for people and for pets. It operates on a 400-year-old dairy farm in the town of Prospect, Maine, and they're focused on making sure you, as a customer, know exactly what you're getting into with CBD. CEO Brad Tipper stopped by, along with actor, model, and entrepreneur Brooke Shields, who joined Prospect Farms as chief brand officer. If I'm being honest, I have interviewed countless CBD companies over the last few years, and it is often difficult to find a differentiating factor between them. But it's clear that both Brad and Brooke are focused on the safety, sustainability, and efficacy of the product the company sells and being transparent around the use cases, both for humans and for pets. I learned more about cannabinoids and terpenes and other buzzwords than I ever have before. And I know you'll also learn a lot in this episode. That's next, after the break.

Well, thank you, both Brad and Brooke, B squared, for joining us. A lot to get to with Prospect Farms. But first I'd love to start with a little icebreaker. It's for a segment we're calling Professional Pet Peeves. So you can interpret this however you want. Think about any workplace setting you've ever been in. If you could wave a magic wand and get rid of some commonly accepted professional courtesy, a thing that we do at work that annoys you, what would you want to get rid of? Either of you can go first, when you think of your answer.

Brooke Shields: I know what it is: "With all due respect." That's got to go. That has got to go. If someone ever says that to me, I say, "I'm going to stop you right there, because what you're going to say will have zero respect in it. So why don't we just move past that and say what you really feel."

Brad Tipper: That was an amazing Curb Your Enthusiasm episode. If you start with "With all due respect," you can say anything afterwards.

Nora Ali: Brad, what about you?

Brad Tipper: Gosh, you know what has always gotten under my skin is that one person in the office that carries around a tennis ball or a bouncy ball and throws it everywhere. Whether it's on the side of the wall, on the floor, is tossing it up in the air. We all know that person. We've all seen that person. I also worked with someone that "did their best thinking" without shoes on.

Nora Ali: No.

Brad Tipper: And that was always uncomfortable.

Brooke Shields: People that don't wear shoes on airplanes make me insane.

Nora Ali: And then they put their feet up on the tray table in front of them. Yeah. It's not good.

Brad Tipper: Oh Nora, I thought you were saying that you were one of those.

Nora Ali: No, goodness, no. I keep my shoes on wherever I go. But Brad, I used to work in a startup office that had Nerf guns everywhere. So imagine that. It's like someone carrying around a ball, but times a thousand, because you have random Nerf gun fights happening across office. Not great for productivity, but great for company happiness, I think.

Brad Tipper: Yeah. I could see that. Where you see people do the noodle fights now.

Nora Ali: Yes. Okay. I love all your answers. So let's get to it. On Prospect Farms, let's start very broadly. Obviously there's a lot of CBD companies that have proliferated over the past few years, but I think the origin story for Prospect Farms is particularly interesting. So Brad, can you walk us through that origin story and how you got involved in the space?

Brad Tipper: The origin story of Prospect Farms really started with a simple question of asking ourselves, when we talk about products being all natural and organic, really asking the question, where do these products actually come from? Natural is just a word, organic is just a word. Regenerative, clean. These are words that have flooded our category. And really when taking a giant step back, there was very little visibility in our space as to the true origin of a "natural" ingredient. And when we really surveyed the landscape, there was at one point 3,600 CBD brands, all with different claims and points of difference, but no one actually started with the source. 

And so we spent the first two years of our journey rehabbing this beautiful old centuries farm in the tiny coastal Maine town of Prospect. To know Prospect is to fall in love with it. It's a town of 728 people, one stop sign, but has a really rich farming tradition. And so we rehabbed our 250-acre campus to what is now one of the largest farming operations that has a deep commitment to organic regenerative principles, all the way down to, we use things like white radishes, spearmint, wild raspberries, and blueberries as our cover crops to really regenerate our soil and really allow our hemp and CBD to flourish. And all the way down to strict organic principles: hand harvested, packaging, distribution all happens at our farm. So we can give you true visibility into where your natural products are truly coming from.

Nora Ali: What is a cover crop?

Brad Tipper: A cover crop essentially allows us to regenerate the soil. So you often hear like the use of things like pesticides in the farming practices. The cover crops are used to actually enhance the nutrients in our soil. So we plant our cover crops in between the hemp. We rely on cover crops that have short root systems that really allow our hemp to flourish. And then we turn that over every year to make sure that we're actually locking in all the nutrients in the soil. One of the benefits about being in Maine is that we do have some pretty long and cold winters. And so that nice little frost that comes on actually is able to lock in a lot of the nutrients into our soil.

Nora Ali: Ah, it's so picturesque too. And I want to read a little snippet from the website that describes the farm. It says, "To know Prospect is to fall in love with it. Here, the sea air softens over rolling fields. The forests are dense. The soil is rich. The water is pure. The community is strong." I love that. It's so poetic. Brooke, what was it about Prospect Farms and the story around it that drew you to the brand?

Brooke Shields: Well, first of all, to use the word "organically" again, we really did meet one another and I met the team in an organic way. It just was very natural. And after really talking to them and not knowing, thinking of CBD in terms of it's everywhere, how is this different? Why? What do I need to know about it? Their transparency and like you were saying, Brad, their regenerative farming practices, everything is sustainably sourced. You can actually follow the journey of each product. That type of transparency and honesty and authenticity was what drew me just to the team to begin with. I can only join forces with something that really makes me feel that I am...in my day job, it's about giving people entertainment, but in any other of my endeavors, it's really, I have to believe in the people, the product, and how can it improve people's lives. So that's what started me off. And then we got into the pet sector of it and I was sunk.

Nora Ali: Well, that question that you had asked, Brooke, when you were first exploring the brand, "How is it different?", is a question a lot of consumers ask when looking at CBD, especially for the first time, and associated products. So Brad, what do consumers care about at the end of the day when they're exploring a brand like this? Is it the regenerative farming, sustainability? Is it the ultimate impact and efficacy? What is top of mind for consumers?

Brad Tipper: It comes down to the efficacy of the products. We very much respect and honor the idea that these are products that both people and pets put in, on, and around their body. And that is not something that we take lightly, in terms of how we approach both the farming side of our business, as well as the manufacturing and the formulation. So one of the things that I'm most proud of in building the Prospect Farms business and brand is our commitment to research and education. So before we ever put products in the hands of consumers, standing behind the value props of this product is going to help you sleep better, this is going to help manage pain, anxiety, stress. This is going to help your younger dogs with mood and hyperactivity, or older dogs with hip and joint and mobility issues. 

We wanted to stand behind the efficacy and not just the words that a lot of our peers are out there in the market touting, but to truly have large scale clinicals and science behind this. So felt very privileged, got introduced early to a spinout of UCLA's Medical Cannabis and CBD Research Institute called Radical Sciences. And we were very fortunate to partner with them early on in our journey to do the largest scale clinical on the impact of our Dream product in promoting a better night's sleep. And so through that, we saw clinically meaningful and significant results off of all World Health Organization metrics. We followed that up with stress and anxiety, and we're in the early stages right now of building out the largest scientific study and panel around the impact on pets. And so for us, before we could ever earn your trust or earn Brooke's trust, we wanted to truly stand behind the science ,because these first and foremost need to be efficacious products. We always say Prospect Farms isn't a brand, it's a farm. It's an actual farm that is responsible for creating these products, and that origin and that commitment to that efficacy and sustainability is really, I think, the most important part and our biggest point of difference in the market.

Brooke Shields: And as someone who, after a certain age, I stopped knowing how to sleep for some reason, it eluded me, and that was the first taste, if you will, of the product.

Brad Tipper: Yeah. And Brooke made an excellent point on just the use of cannabinoids as well as terpenes. What often is overlooked in our space in terms of the conversation around CBD is the hemp flower produces 141 unique cannabinoids. Major and minor cannabinoids. The first one that really caught attention was CBD, but there's others like CBG, CBN, and then there's this profile of botanicals called terpenes. Terpenes is a word that we don't use often. I put it in that same broad category as adaptogens. They sound fancy, they seem to be effective, but there really isn't a lot of consumer understanding of what terpenes are. Really basic example: If you've ever used lavender essential oil for its calming benefits, that primary compound in that lavender essential oil is called linalyl. Linalyl is naturally occurring in lavender. It also naturally occurs in the hemp flower. And so we reintroduce concentrations of linalyl back in our Dream product, for instance, to help with that common sedative effect. And we work with another portfolio called myrcene, which comes from mangoes; pinenes, which are phenomenal for mood and cognition. 

And so it's really that "sum of the parts" approach. Each one of our profiles not only are full-spectrum CBD extract, as well as a terpene profile and a use of carrier oil to really think about absorption and palatability. So the three basic building blocks for products really are the type of hemp extracts, whether it's full, broad, or an isolate product, the use of terpenes, and the final, the most often overlooked is this use of carrier oils. So 95% to 98% of any bottle that you're seeing on the shelf is actually a filler. And overwhelming majority of participants in the space are using MCT or hemp seed oil. They bind well with the CBD and the terpenes, but there are really very few secondary health benefits. So we use a profile of high fat soluble carrier oils, our primary base being an olive oil that's high in concentration of things like polyphenols that really aid in absorption, but also give our consumers in our community those secondary health benefits. And we think that "sum of the parts" approach really differentiates us from just an ingredient and formulation perspective. And it ultimately helps people like Nora and Brooke. It really targets those end benefits, whether it's to help sleep, help manage mood and anxiety, stress, pain, et cetera.

Nora Ali: There's a lot of different components that many people I imagine aren't really familiar with. There's a lot of education around this, a lot of different layers. You mentioned cannabinoids, which we've heard a lot before in the CBD space, but what exactly is a cannabinoid? And in the most basic terms.

Brad Tipper: Cannabinoids are the unique compounds that exist within the hemp flower that are naturally occurring. You would see, to break it down into simple biological terms, water is H2O, cannabinoids are the sum of the parts compounds that naturally occur within the hemp flower.

Nora Ali: Got it. That makes sense. It is tricky, because you're trying to lean in on the efficacy, what the actual impact is on consumers, but all of this is important for them to know, because if they're being introduced to terpenes and adaptogens and all of that for the first time, they have to understand how that's different from the other products that they're seeing that are on the market.

Brad Tipper: In terms of how we communicate, we often say there's a lot of parallels between even the wine industry. In my view, there's a mountain of difference between Two Buck Chuck and estate wine. You can go buy a bottle of wine at your corner store or bodega, or you can go to a small batch vineyard in California, but they're all grapes. But what makes those products so different is every step in the process. It's the soil, it's the alchemy, it's the experts that care for the crops and the grapes, it's the fermentation process. It's all those steps that make a giant difference in creating a different quality of grape. And it's very, very similar for any agricultural product. What we're trying to do is just educate in the difference of each step of that process. What makes Prospect Farms so unique, in the end, in that finished product, and why you should care?

Nora Ali: There will be a cannabinoid equivalent of a sommelier at some point, hopefully.

Brad Tipper: Hopefully.

Nora Ali: Some exam you can take. All right, we are going to take a very quick break. More with Brad and Brooke when we return.

So Brooke, I heard you say in a different interview that gone are the days of you just plastering your face on a brand for the sake of it. That's not your style. So what is your role exactly as chief brand officer of Prospect Farms? How much time are you spending on this? What does your day to day look like? What are you hoping to accomplish? Tell us the real scoop of what this means for Brooke Shields.

Brooke Shields: So the real scoop is a lot of Zooms and phone calls. A lot of my dog, whose name is Pepper, but we call her Magoo or Goo. We just, that's what we do for some weird reason. She's very neurotic and I've loved dogs my entire life. I then developed allergies to dogs—

Nora Ali: Oh no.

Brooke Shields: After I got pregnant, which was just one more thing to blame your children for. But it doesn't stop me. When I was a little girl, my mom and I used to foster dogs because we've...ridiculously, but we found that we would take dogs that were in dire straits and we would foster them. And inevitably people...it was so strange, but they would want to adopt the dog that I had. And it makes no sense because it doesn't make the dog a better person, but we started our own little informal fostering service where we would just find, and people wanted these dogs.

So dogs have been a very important part of my whole life. And when I heard of the mobility drops as well as the calming drops, I really wanted to align myself with the pet part of Prospect Farms, because you don't hear about it a lot. And there's really not a lot out there. And I really believe that Prospect Farms is going to make such a positive difference. It's already made a positive difference in my dog's life. She's still a nutty dog, but she's a little less hyper. Fourth of July was not a terrorizing night for her this year, which was amazing. And my involvement is, it just keeps being revealed. Whether it's in print, I can't wait to get to the farm. We just did a whole campaign for pets for Prospect Farms. So I'm face forward. I'm more of a conduit. It's more of a way of getting it out there into a place that gets it attention.

Nora Ali: It's clear that you're not just a passive partner in this, because I've done plenty of interviews where you have the high-profile person who's associated with the brand and they just have their basic one-liners that they say about the brand. But Brooke, I can tell you're very passionate about it. You believe in it. And it's very personal for you because of the pet piece of it as well.

Brooke Shields: Absolutely. And I just appreciate that the amount of effort and time that Brad and the rest of the team have put into wanting me to understand it and educating me, and I knew nothing about CBD. I was like, "Am I going to get high?", to being terrified of that because I'm just not...as I say, bad for the buzz, no matter who I'm with. And I needed to be educated as to that difference what this was. It wasn't all just one thing. And so I appreciate that. A lot of the time you are asked to be a part of something and they just want that. They don't care if you understand it. They don't care if you can speak to the product. They just want the visibility, and that's not Prospect Farms' MO.

Nora Ali: Brooke, can you explain, then, for others who might have that same initial concern? "Ah, yeah, am I going to get high? Is it like THC?" What do you feel when you use the product from Prospect Farms?

Brooke Shields: What I felt initially, which was unbelievable to me, is I was afraid I was going to feel with the sleep, the Dream, I was afraid I was going to be groggy or something, that there would be some after-effect. And what it did was just allow me to sleep so much more peacefully. So I woke up fewer times. It wasn't the kind of thing that I, that when I took an Ambien or a Benadryl or whatever it was that I would try to take to sleep, you have that period where you feel sluggish. This was more about quality of sleep than making me feel groggy in any way. I just appreciated that. I, by nature, am rather high strung insofar as I'm just always at the ready, and it's exhausting. So I find that my dog and I are much happier.

Nora Ali: I'm right there with you, Brooke. I feel like I need to try this out. Because you're right. When I take things like Benadryl or NyQuil, I feel groggy. I have nightmares, bad dreams—

Brooke Shields: Horrible nightmares.

Nora Ali: Yeah. I wake up feeling worse, like I'm not even well-rested. So it sounds like a really good alternative. But Brad, you were mentioning the research that goes into this. The academic research, you're working with various organizations. What does it look like for pets? How different is that from the research around humans?

Brad Tipper: Unfortunately, pet is a bit of a wild west today, and that is something that we, in alignment with Brooke, are really looking to change in our industry. So to give you one representation of this, currently there's no regulations on things like heavy metals in our pet supplements or pet food products. So things like arsenic, lead, mercury, cadmium. But using arsenic as an example, that was used in rat poison until the early two thousands.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Brooke Shields: And the cancer levels have risen tremendously in animals, in pets.

Brad Tipper: Yeah. To Brooke's point, there's a direct link behind these heavy metals and carcinogens and the rise in cancer in dogs. There's recent studies that have just been published that 50% of dogs over the age of 10 are unfortunately going to pass from some form of cancer.

Nora Ali: Well-being of our pets is becoming just as important as the well-being of ourselves. So I'm glad to hear that you guys are on the forefront of that. We're going to take one last quick break. More with Brad and Brooke when we come back.

Brooke, let's get a little personal here. You've been quite open about your recent experience with injury and recovery following an accident in the winter of 2021. And I imagine that made you perhaps more focused on just general wellness and your well-being and your health. How did that experience affect your approach to your overall wellness?

Brooke Shields: It affected my overall wellness in a few different ways. I used to really drive myself very hard within everything. And to me, I would work out too much. And this having to learn how to walk again, which is exactly what I had to do, was such a raw, profound experience. But what it did was it made me feel so thankful of the body that I do have and how it's capacity to heal. And it just made me so much more cognizant of how I treat my body.

I've always eaten well, but by the same token, the level of stress that I put on myself to achieve, and perfection, and all of this was taking a toll on me. And it wasn't until I was literally flattened with this experience that I just reassembled how I looked at taking care of my person inside and out. And part of that also was taking a break, not driving myself so hard, being okay with relaxing or doing something calming or doing something that could be seemingly silly, like needlepoint or something. But this idea that taking care of yourself is not just how you eat or whether you exercise. It's really treating the different symptoms that can tax your health.

Nora Ali: And even for those of us who didn't go through a traumatic experience like you did with your injury, just during the pandemic, I think we're all just more cognizant of surviving and taking better care of ourselves and thinking about our mental health as well. So Brad, with this, I guess, increased focus on general wellness, has that impacted demand for products like CBD and everything you offer at Prospect Farms? Are people maybe more proactively looking to find ways to calm down, get better sleep, than, say, pre-pandemic?

Brad Tipper: Absolutely. It's been really, really interesting to see how the world has shifted on the backdrop of the pandemic, and really to see which categories are becoming more and more supportive of CBD. So within the last six months, we launched an entire relief line focused on pain and inflammation, muscle aches and soreness for spa and hospitality. And this is a community, when...I say this eloquently, when you're face-down on a treatment table, you don't care about the brand or the packaging. You care about the relief. You want to have trust and you want efficacy. And so this concept of having a single source origin, crafted, high potency product like we're offering at Prospect Farms on the massage table, in the treatment room, we've seen a tremendous increase in support on the back of that. So you can now find those products in your Exhale spas, your Equinox, and a lot of major hotel partners, because people are taking more care of themselves and they really care a lot about the impact of these products on their bodies.

Brooke Shields: I also think that there's been this shift from surface and topical, almost, approach of what we apply to our bodies. We don't really think about how we absorb and why we absorb things. And so it matters. Again, I'm from an era where you slapped whatever they gave you on your face. And you just didn't think about it. Our body, our skin is our largest organ. So this idea that I think this period of time, this focus on wellness has started from inside out and outside in, that there is that marriage between the two and your body is absorbing what you put on it.

Nora Ali: Yeah. And Brooke, your focus on wellness has in part led to you starting your company Beginning is Now, which is very wellness focused. Talk to us a little bit about what that is, and maybe what the most rewarding part of building that community has been for you.

Brooke Shields: The community itself grew so quickly. I was really shocked. It was right before the pandemic. I was sharing with a friend of mine my dissatisfaction with how women over 40 are represented in the marketplace. And I wanted to create basically a 360-degree, definitely a holistic approach, but to well-being in terms of women over a certain age have different needs. But the one thing that I've been so moved by, and it really is becoming a movement, is that in growing Beginning is Now, the community that's come together, we have large, large conversation platforms, and it's a platform. We will be going into very, very specific problem-solving products. We are just in the process of really doing the whole business plan for that. But I wanted to create the community first, and the community was just lying in wait. And they've been saying, "Oh my God, nobody's talking to us. Nobody's marketing to us."

You can be 20 and there's products for 20 years old, or you're in Depends and you have dentures and you're one foot in the grave. And there's this bracket, this demo from 40 to about 64, that is rich from experience. They've had such large lives already and there's more to do. And I wanted to create that platform to encourage women to have new chapters in their lives. And it's grown very, very quickly. So things like CBD and things like Prospect Farms' products for menopausal phases of a woman's life, there's so much out there to really be mined. And I wanted to be that destination for women over 40.

Nora Ali: Well, before we let you both go, we have a fun segment. It is called Shoot your Shot. So I'll let each of you go one at a time, but this is your chance to shoot your shot. Tell me what your biggest moonshot idea is. So your biggest ambition, your wildest dream. It could be personal. It could be work related. It could be Prospect Farms related. Brad, why don't you go first, and feel free to shoot your shot?

Brad Tipper: My moonshot idea recently that's really captivated my attention has been this whole concept around the Woolly Mammoth Project. If you guys have read anything about this?

Nora Ali: No.

Brad Tipper: So they're on the precipice of bringing back the woolly mammoth. And so it's fascinating. I encourage everyone to Google about the woolly mammoth. Similar to Brooke—and I hope she does share the story of interning at the San Diego Zoo—have been fascinated with animals, hence the love of pets in Prospect Farms and our focus on the pet side. But I'm equally fascinated by all things woolly mammoth and bringing them back. So allegedly the year 2030, we are going to have real woolly mammoths in a zoo near you.

Nora Ali: Wait, like Jurassic Park style? Like how does that work?

Brad Tipper: Hopefully they learned from Jurassic Park, but I know they're starting with woolly mammoths and they've, I think, found DNA in sub Siberia and are looking at reintroducing it. They're calling it de-extinction, which I think is a really interesting concept of actually helping prevent de-extinction of a lot of animals, and one their core focuses has been on the woolly mammoth.

Nora Ali: That's amazing. And I can't wait.

Brad Tipper: I can't wait either.

Nora Ali: I've never heard anything like that, Brad, for this segment.

Brad Tipper: You said moonshot.

Brooke Shields: I'm at a loss.

Nora Ali: You said who worked at the San Diego zoo? That was you, Brooke?

Brooke Shields: I worked at the San Diego zoo when I was a senior in high school and I was there between 5:00 and 5:30 every morning. And I did a lot of just cleaning and shopping, but then also worked very hands-on in the nursery with babies that had been either rejected by their moms or couldn't nurse because their nasal passages were blocked. And so they then would get rejected by the mom. So it really, it was an amazing time.

Nora Ali: That's so sweet.

Brooke Shields: God, my moonshot is funny. I'm so consumed with Beginning is Now as well. And trying to also find ways to incorporate Prospect Farms within what I am doing in the rollout of that. I really want Beginning is Now to be as big as I believe it can be. I think we can have a media component. I think we can become a media platform as well. I think when we start getting into fully fleshing out our portals, I can just see this affecting...by, what is it, 2025, there will be like 2.5 billion of us or something like that. And I want to touch as many of them and become global as I can.

Nora Ali: Great, amazing. Two very different moonshot ideas, but I love them both. All right. On that note, let's leave things there. This has been so fun. Brad, Brooke, thank you for joining us on Business Casual.

Brad Tipper: Such a pleasure, Nora. I'm going to go by B squared from this point forward.

Brooke Shields: Yeah, B squared.

Nora Ali: Please do. Please do. Thank you both. This is Business Casual and I'm Nora Ali. You can follow me on Twitter @NoraKAli, and I would love to hear from you. If you have ideas for episodes, comments, thoughts on episodes you loved, even fun segment ideas, feel free to shoot me a DM, and I will do my very best to respond. You can also reach the BC team by emailing businesscasual@morningbrew.com, or call us. The number is 862-295-1135. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And if you like the show, please leave us a rating and a review. It really, really helps us.

Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins, with special production help on this episode from Olivia Mead. Additional production, sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Kate Brandt is our fact checker. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali. Keep it business, and keep it casual.