Oct. 7, 2021

Shein's all that? With Terry Nguyen

Shein's all that? With Terry Nguyen

E-commerce giant Shein is taking over the fast-fashion industry, but at what cost?


Terry Nguyen, a reporter for The Goods at Vox, joins Nora and Scott to talk about Shein’s takeover of the fast-fashion industry. Drawing on research from her recent article, “Shein is the future of fast fashion. Is that a good thing?,” Nguyen discusses Shein’s ubiquity on social media, its supply chain and production processes, and the ethical concerns surrounding the brand. 

 

Transcript

[AD BREAK]

Nora Ali: I don't know about you Scott, but Shein clothing hauls have been taking over my TikTok feed recently. I just can't seem to get away from it.

Scott Rogowsky: I just opened my TikTok feed and let's see. Oh, it's just, someone's just soaking strawberrie in what appears to be saltwater? I don't know why that's oh, oh my, oh my Lord. What is in there? Oh no. There's spiders and worms and creepy crawlies coming out of these berries. Yeah, so that's my TikTok feed.

Nora Ali: Yeah, clearly. I don't know what that says about you. If that's on your For You page, maybe you're just drawn to creepy crawly videos.

Scott Rogowsky: I like to watch the strawberries, but honestly, I don't know. No, I don't know about Shein. I didn't know how to pronounce Shein until I'm hearing you say it right now for the first time, and I'm not even convinced you're saying it correctly. Are you a hundred percent on this?

Nora Ali: I am a hundred percent. I did my research and there was a tweet from Shein that was replying to some tweeter who was wondering, and it's because it was called “She Inside” before, so it is Shein. 

Scott Rogowsky: Oh, She Inside. That makes sense. What does that mean? 

Nora Ali: Exactly. She Inside..the fashion. I don't know. And, and even if you see these, these hauls on TikTok, people trying on hundreds of dollars worth of clothing, almost every time, they're like, I don't even know if I'm saying this right, but here's my Shein slash Shine haul. So you're not alone in that. But Scott, you—what's your familiarity generally with Shein, besides not having known how to pronounce it? 

Scott Rogowsky: Th- there, there is absolutely zero familiarity, or at least there was until we talked to our guest today because she got inside the company formerly known as She Inside, she got in it and she exposed a lot of the, I don't know, shadiness, the opacity, I guess, that is surrounding this company. I guess she didn't really get inside because it's hard to get inside.

Nora Ali: It is. Yeah. There's a lot of unknowns about Shein, which is very confusing. Having in a past life, worked in e-commerce it's like incredible how amazing the imagery is on the website, how good their, just, product data is.That's hard to gather in the first place. So I'm glad we have our guests with us. It was an amazing conversation. Her name is Terry Nguyen. She's a Vox media reporter who recently covered Shein’s takeover of the fast fashion industry. So she writes about everything from Shein's ubiquity on social media, which we were just talking about, to its supply chain, to its production processes, to the ethical concerns surrounding the brand. And there are a lot of ethical concerns, including environmental concerns. And she is awesome. It was a great conversation.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. We got in with Shein and Terry Nguyen. Listen in.

[MUSIC BREAK]

Scott Rogowsky: Terry. Shein, am I pronouncing that right? What is this crazy company that I'm just learning about for the first time today? It's truly startling in its scale in terms of the revenue it's bringing in. Also shocking in the fact that there seems to be zero transparency. No one knows who's in charge, where the factories are,what the supply chain actually looks like.

The labor practices. I mean, they've clearly captured the attention of TikTokers, of all these GenZ-ers out there in America, I don't know. Break it down for me. I'm too old for all this TikTok Shein. I don't know what I'm talking about, but you seem to know.

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, I think you might not be in the demographic reach, not because you're older, but probably because you're a man and Shein is primarily focused on women's fashion, specifically for young women. You mentioned Gen Z; millennial women shop there, too. So pretty much the 18-to-35 year old demographic, but it is a China-based new fast-fashion company that is an online only retailer. And as you've mentioned, they've dominated TikTok and social media with kind of, they're very on-trend clothing and very well-produced Instagram ads. Everyone on my TikTok feed seems to love Shein just because they have just so many different types of clothes, so many different types of styles at very low prices. And especially for teenagers, and you know, young influencers who want to look like they constantly have a new outfit, Shein is a great place for them in their minds to shop.

Nora Ali: And Terry, when you say cheap prices and low prices, it's not like Amazon low or Walmart low, it's like three dollar, four dollar  items. It's mindbogglingly low priced at some times. But in your piece you wrote about these $800, $900 hauls. Can you tell us a bit more about what we're actually seeing on TikTok with Shein influencers?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, so Shein markets itself as a retailer that's extremely affordable, but by nature of that affordability, it allows for a lot of people to spend lots of money and basically get a lot of clothes. So, as I mentioned in my piece, you can get tops for under five ninety-nine, dresses for ten dollars, clearance items for three-to-five dollars. And since the styles aren't too teenager focused, they have just so many different types of clothing on their store, it's also something that you can buy blazers to go to work. You can buy, you know, work clothes there. And so they're also reaching like a middle-, working class demographic as well. Not just teenagers.

Scott Rogowsky: I may be a man, but I'm familiar with the term fast fashion. I've seen the Steve Coogan movie Greed, which I highly recommend. And I guess there've been these companies existing for the last, I don't know, 10 to 20 years potentially, companies like Zara, Forever 21, H&M, who take the runway designs, quickl turn them around, offer them to the mass consumers at a cheaper price point. But what is it about Shein specifically that makes them even faster fashion and gives them a leg up on even their competition within the space?

Terry Nguyen: So most Americans who've been to a shopping mall in the past five years probably recognize Zara, Forever 21, as you said, but there's been this new crop of what we call ultra-fast-fashion brands. And they're like, ASOS, Fashion Nova, Boohoo. And now Shein kind of emerges as even faster than those ultra-fast brands, which don't even have brick-and-mortar retail stores, they simply operate online and they rely on social media marketing to reach customers. Shein is special in that it uses algorithms to determine what search terms are really popular for customers and what shoppers are looking for on the internet, and they kind of use that and customer data to foreshadow trends. Am expert I spoke with likened Shein’s pace to real-time retail, which means they're constantly, you know, using data and using that knowledge to craft and pull new designs from existing retailers. And they're faster just because they're also essentially based in China, close to a lot of garment factories, manufacturers, whereas a lot of Western brands have to outsource this work and wait for them to, you know, be shipped to warehouses before they can put it in stores. 

Nora Ali: The use of algorithms and search terms to kind of predict what fashion is going to be, or is reminds me of TikTok itself. It reminds me of the For You page where you're seeing content before you even think you might want it. So going back to the social media part of it, I do want to play a quick clip of a Shein haul on TikTok that went viral. Here it is.

[TikTok audio clip plays]

Nora Ali: So, Terry, to what extent is TikTok part of the reason why Shein is able to proliferate beyond the Zaras, the H&M's and the other fast-fashion brands of the world. Is there something specific about that relationship that SheIn users have with TikTok?

Terry Nguyen: Shein was one of the first companies to join TikTok and, you know, that's not surprising given how TikTok is originally a Chinese app and Shein is a Chinese platform. It makes sense that they'd hop onto an emerging social platform that's growing popular in the United States. And really since the pandemic, despite, you know, most people being stuck at home, Shein really saw growth in sales. I think 2020 was its most profitable year yet, it raked in, you know, ten billion dollars. But the fact is Shein has spent so aggressively and you know, these numbers are not known or publicly available, but just through anecdotal experience, I've heard that their ads are everywhere for a certain demographic group and on social media as well and that, added to the grassroots word of mouth interest from regular TikTok users who aren't influencers, the retailer has really come to just dominate the platform.

Scott Rogowsky: You said $10 billion. And it's those figures that really kind of take me aback and I want to get a better sense for the audience, just the scale. I mean, Amazon, we all know Amazon, Shein actually had more downloads than Amazon at one point. Is that true?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, that's true. There was a brief moment, although I think Amazon has regained its crown on the top of the app store, where Shein as a new app beat Amazon as number one on the U.S. app store.

Scott Rogowsky: Look, I downloaded the Shein app purely as research for this interview. And I got to say, I get it. I mean, they bombard you with coupons. They've got these catchy graphics and video edits, thousands of items, and a seemingly neverending scroll. Within five minutes, I had bought a silk gathered halter top, three scoop necked ribbed unitard rompers, and an asymmetrical ruffle hem skirt all for nine bucks, and I’m more of a pencil skirt guy, but at those prices who can resist? But how do they do it? I mean, I look at this as a, as someone who's been a producer for TV and digital space, and I'm looking at these app and I'm seeing their video edits and all the photo shoots and they have popups on college campuses and it's like, who's running all this? How do you physically, logistically take all these photos of the products, upload them to the app? I mean, they're putting 6,000 new items on this app every day at times, what's the scale of the logistical operation here? 

Terry Nguyen: It's because there are so many influencers and people willing to make that content for them that Shein can simply ask to use, you know, an influencer’s video or haul video as their own advertisement and kind of slot that in as well. So I think that's another reason why it creates a sense that it's ubiquitous, that it's everywhere, that it's, you know, it fits with the Gen Z aesthetic that is popular on TiKTok. I've read almost like every English language piece written about Shein and some Chinese written articles as well, but none of them really give insight into how this company works. Like we know the person who founded it, his name is Chris Xu and he specializes, unsurprisingly, in search engine optimization. We know that Shein has a design team that's tasked with figuring out what's trendy, what people are searching for, and designs that are popular from other fast-fashion retailers with a runway. But this extended operation you mentioned, connecting with U.S.-based customers since the U.S. is their largest market besides Europe and Canada, but it's, it's unknown. I don't really know how large that is, but it does seem like there's a lot of people behind this enterprise and the supply chain itself. There's not a lot of information available about that as well.

Nora Ali: I mean, to Scott's point the product detail pages, the imagery, I've worked in e-commerce before for a company that was owned by Walmart, which has literally millions of employees. And it's really hard to get that quality content on an e-commerce website, but it feels like Shein is doing all of the things right in a way that Gen Z cares about at this point, but at the same time not. And what I mean by that is there's free shipping. There's free returns to some extent. You have low prices and you're seeing high quality imagery for the products, but at the same time, the fast-fashion aspect of it, the perhaps unethical aspect of it, is so misaligned with what we perceive to be one of the core tenets of the Gen Z mindset. So Terry, in your research, what have you found draws gen Z to this company, even though maybe some of the ethics aren't quite aligned with that generation?

Terry Nguyen: I really do think that it just has really figured out what trends are popular with gen Z. Something like, you know, the Y2K trends, the halter tops, the low-rise jeans, and really getting a hold of what's popular on Instagram, like certain prints and certain styles, and just making that available so quickly and constantly restocking it as well once an item goes viral, I think that's extremely crucial because, you know, reporting on gen Z shopping habits, you see that people are excited when an item goes viral and they really want to get their hands on it. And a lot of retailers aren't able to keep stock or keep up with kind of this rush of demand that TikTok produces. But, you know, for the most part, it seems like Shein has, and that works to their advantage.

Scott Rogowsky: I had ventured a guess that 94% of Sheins gen Z shoppers would consider themselves socially conscious, justice oriented, eco-friendly, yet from your reporting and what I've read elsewhere, it doesn't seem Shein embodies those values, like at all. How do you explain the company's popularity in the face of what seems to be pretty glaring contradictions?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. Well, first of all, I do want to say that as an average consumer, it's so hard for someone to really delve into the supply chain or, you know, how an item comes to be. I think most consumers look at price and they look at how a website is designed and how nice it is and how they communicate with people. So I think Shein has done a really good job at presenting a facade that it, you know, cares about the environment. A couple of weeks or a month ago they had Shein cares hashtag on TikTok about saving the planet and saving animals specifically, I think. There were photos of pandas and tigers, which seems a little bit like deflection to me, but in regards to kind of the working conditions there, really not much as known as I said, but I've spoken to an expert who has said that Shein actually managed to maintain kind of a decent reputation in China for paying their factories on time. And they work with not really huge factories. You would think that, you know, a retailer that rakes in $10 billion a year would have huge warehouses, but they actually work with what he calls small- to mid-sized workshops and they operate in something he described as like an Uber system where a new orders come into the factory systems and then they receive the order and then they send it out and, you know, the Uyghur population and kind of the whole controversy over cotton based in China, I think that is a problem that's affecting a lot of fashion retailers, a lot of retailers like Zara and H&M have said that they're no longer using cotton from that region until it's cleared by certain international bodies that, you know, overlook cotton standards. But Shein, you know, by nature of it being a China-based company, hasn't really spoken out about that or even mentioned it at all. And so I would imagine they're sourcing cotton from that area just because it is so popular. As you know, it's a major supplier of cotton.

Nora Ali: We're speaking with Vox reporter Terry Nguyen about her article titled “Shein is the Future of Fast Fashion. Is That a Good Thing?” We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk even more about the fast fashion supply chain, how sustainable it is, and more on the ethics of Shein.

[AD BREAK]

Nora Ali: So, Terry, I am curious about what Shein brings up as far as the relationship with China and the trade war. And you wrote in your piece, the fact that Shein is able to uniquely avoid import and export duties. Can you sort of explain how Shein has been able to take advantage of trade tensions between the U.S. and China?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, Shein has really benefited from, interestingly enough, deteriorating trade relations between China and the U.S. So in 2018, China began waiving export taxes for direct-to-consumer companies after the U.S. imposed more tariffs. And since Shein ships its orders directly to customers from Chinese warehouses, packages that are worth less than $800 remain duty-free. So most people don't pay for shipping and Shein, on the other hand, doesn't have to pay duties. So they've managed to kind of circumvent paying both export and import taxes for about three years, something that other brick-and-mortar retailers aren't able to avoid.

Scott Rogowsky: So between the export and import savings or avoidance, rather, you're talking about a nearly 25% savings to Shein on taxes alone. They can pass that savings onto the consumer, which undercuts the competition.

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. I mean, if you're Zahra or Forever 21, or if you basically have a brick-and-mortar store, there's no way you're able to bypass that duty because you're pretty much shipping it in bulk. Whereas if you're shipping it to individuals, as you mentioned, it's much smaller and it's a small value shipment.

Nora Ali: Will there ever be another Shein then it just, it feels like there's such a big moat to try to put all these pieces together that Shein somehow has put together.

Terry Nguyen: The expert I spoke to actually mentioned this one brand that's actually receiving a lot more TikTok attention called Halara.

Nora Ali: Yes. I get Halara ads all the time. And I also get people posting on my, For you page who are annoyed at the Halara ads. ’Cause there's so many of them.

Terry Nguyen: Yes. I recently wrote about the exercise dress, which is one of Halara’s like most popular items.

Nora AliLet's describe that dress to Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: Okay. How many should I buy? Do I need one for Pilates, one yoga, one for kettlebells? Do I need a different exercise dress for each station in my circuit training?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. It's basically a strappy mini dress, but it's just made in very comfortable fabrics and there's a spandex shorts underneath.

Nora Ali:  With pockets. 

Terry Nguyen: Yes. There's pockets. You can theoretically work out in it. That's another kind of up-and-coming brand. It's not as big as Shein, but it's certainly taking the steps. You're checking the boxes that Shein has done to facilitate its rise.

Scott Rogowsky: Bring back the nostalgia of childhood outdoor adventures and playing on the jungle gym with friends, with your Halara exercise dress.

Terry Nguyen: They're going to cut that and use it like on TikTok. If you're not careful.

Scott Rogowsky: Uh oh. Am I going to be stitched?

Nora Ali: Scott's just trying to go viral. 

Scott Rogowsky: I'm not, look, my TikTok feed is mostly turtles, a few tortoises, engaged in sexual activity. I think I have a different, I exist in a different TikTok world than most. The algorithms figured me out.

Nora Ali: That's a good point, Scott. I just keep going back to this idea that, you didn't know what Shein was, plenty of men in my life didn't know what Shein was. And it's just, it is this ubiquitous brand for a very specific niche of people. Terry, do you think Shein is going to expand? I don't know if they offer any men's clothing, but do you expect them to expand to different categories? What is your outlook on what expansion might look like for Shein? If they even need expansion at this point.

Terry Nguyen: I think they are trying to expand in the men's fashion market. They're pretty much putting out anything that people are willing to buy, really. I also think they have a kids’ section. But so far it seems like it's working for them. We've mentioned earlier that they have a campus ambassador program. Not like they really need any more advertising among kind of that specific demographic, but it does seem like they're trying to do more in-person pop-ups. It doesn't seem like they're trying to do, you know, full brick and mortar just yet because the online space is clearly benefiting them. But yeah, it's kind of overwhelming to think about. There's just already so big in my imagination.

Scott Rogowsky: Are you getting a sense about any backlash to the brand at this point? Because of, I mean, look, there's the baseline of the ethical concerns around the labor practices, but not only that, the environmental impact of fast-fashion companies, which has long been a problem. Your reports that the production of polyester textiles alone emitted about 706 billion kilograms of greenhouse gases in 2015. And we know that Shein has ramped up production since 2015, but beyond that, I've heard anecdotally, these packages take forever to arrive because they are coming from China and there could be some shipment issues there. They are also not the highest quality, go figure. These items of clothing they fall apart after one or two wears.

Nora Ali:  I was explaining to Scott earlier that sometimes you will receive a package. You think it's in your size, you ordered it in your size. And it appears to be like an infant size or a doll size. So there are a lot of situations where it's just not what you were promised.

Scott Rogowsky: You know, it’s the kind of thing where people will try anything once, right? They see the catchy ads, they see their favorite influencer talking about it. They'll buy it. We saw the boom in revenue, but I mean, could that quickly pull back just as quickly as it ramped up, if there's all this backlash and kind of in a realization that maybe this isn't the best company to do business with?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. I definitely think public perception is slowly but surely changing. I think a couple of weeks ago, Shein announced that it was going to launch a design competition and they were all, with major figures who are judging it. And the winner would get like a hundred thousand dollars. And I think people like Khloe Kardashian, Christian Siriano, Law Roach, were going to judge it. And I saw there was some backlash to these famous people working with this company that's known to not have a lot of best interests for the planet, maybe for their workers, for consumers even. And so it did seem briefly that the internet was kind of outraged, but the interesting thing about kind of fashion and retailers is that even though, in spite of outrage, people are still buying things and public perception can be one thing. And we've seen this with even designer brands like Dolce and Gabbana, but people still being committed to wearing them. People, you know, influencers, getting sponsorship money by them, that still won't, you know, derail the path that it's on. For me, it seems like Shein really has managed to emerge as the big site where you go back-to-school shopping, if you're a high schooler, if you're going to college and I'm not sure whether that will change anytime soon, or if there'll be another retailer that would just simply replace it.

Nora Ali: And if you go to the homepage, you see like Hannah G. from the Bachelor franchise touting products, and you're right. There's a lot of these real quote unquote real influencers that have relationships with Shein. But I keep asking you about gen Z because you're an expert on gen Z. I saw that you have a newsletter called Gen Yeet, which is awesome, but to what extent are gen Z and younger generations becoming more discerning and critical of influencers, even though Hannah G. has an relationship with Shein, maybe I should still do my own research and be critical of Shein as a brand. Just how much more critical is gen Z getting, do you think?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, I think there have been a lot of conversations about conscious consumerism, buying things more secondhand, but that awareness can also exist in tandem with occasionally needing to buy clothes once, you know, you start college, for example. I have interviewed several teenagers, gen Z, and millennial women for this piece and several other fast-fashion pieces I've done. And they've, you know, mentioned that awareness and that acknowledgement that these clothes are too cheap to be true, really in the sense that they're stylish, but they can also fall apart after a few wears. And so I do think there's that conscious level that we're approaching, but you know, at the same with Amazon, Shein is, it seems to me like too big to fail. And while, you know, people can write a Twitter thread about how it's bad, or maybe if something comes out about its labor conditions, that could be more damning, that might change consumer sentiment. But for now it seems like people are still on the Shein train.

Scott Rogowsky: We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Nora and I will ask Terry how we can become Shein influencers and get it onto that sweet, sweet Shein money.

[AD BREAK]

Scott Rogowsky: So Terry, seriously, who do I talk to? How do we get in on this? I want to start modeling off my gathered halter tops and bandos. Yeah. Do you have like a contact I can hit up?

Terry Nguyen: No, I guess you have to just hashtag Shein and hope for the best.

Scott Rogowsky: Hashtag Shein. I was doing some digging around on LinkedIn, okay. And I mean, again, I'm kind of blown away by how Shein is accomplishing all this with what seems to be a rather bare bones operation. Amazon for comparison has 1.3 million employees around the world. Shein LinkedIn has 1,118 employees, at least officially LinkedIn to LinkedIn, 167 of them in the United States. And of those 167, I was poking around. Most of these are women in college, young women, influencer marketing coordinators. They call themselves campus ambassadors, brand ambassadors. So it looks like they are employing some college kids or recent grads, very lightly, I guess, to you know, maybe run these pop ups at the campuses like you mentioned, or do some PR in their communities on campuses. I just, I don't know. I'm still kind of amazed that they can operate at this scale with what doesn't seem to be the most sophisticated U.S. operation, at least.

Terry Nguyen: It really does seem like a shadow operation to me, which I've also thought like maybe these employees are based in China. They don't have LinkedIn, or maybe they operate under a different name or just like, they want to stay mysterious, which has worked for them. Like there is this aura of like online mystique around the brand. I think that they'll love to have you. They need, they need more male models, I guess. I'm on the men’s style gallery. And I think you'd fit right in. Like Shein dot com and there's like men's and they showcase like some influencers with their handles. You can get, you can make them Insta famous. This might be your shot.

Scott Rogowsky: Hashtag Hein. But honestly, Nora and I were talking, I think there could be like a 10-part podcast just around the mystery of this company. Right? Give it the Serial treatment and break it down and get to the bottom. Like, you know, it's almost like tracing a global drug cabal. You've got these, these kids, these campus ambassadors on the streets, like the low-level street dealers dealing these $8 jumpsuits, but then you go back it up, okay, who's running the U.S. who's coordinating all these influencers. And then you back it up who is running the U.S. operation. That seems to me a noble endeavor. Maybe you could join our investigative team here at Terry and we get to the bottom of Shein.

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. I mean, I definitely need a contract for that, but I'm very intrigued. 

Nora Ali: Well, Scott brings up a good point. The, the economics even don't really make sense to me in that, for example, I literally have an eight-dollar item in my cart and it's giving me the option of free shipping as like a first-time promo. And you know, that has to be a negative margin shipment. They have to be losing money on that because Amazon can do that, allow you to buy a tube of toothpaste on its own with free shipping, because you're paying for Prime membership and they have these other higher margin businesses to support their lower margin e-commerce business. So in a way, Terry, it feels like something's brewing. Like there's some impending doom around Shein, because if you Google it, if you Google, “Is Shein,” the auto-fill that comes out is: is it legal? Is it good quality? Is it from China? Is it safe? So Terry, if you had to look into your crystal ball, do you think Shein will be able to sustain itself in the way that it exists now, or are people are going to start poking holes in the way that we are driven to be poking holes right now with the whole story, the whole concept, even of Shein.

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. I don't know if it'll be as long-lasting as Zara or Forever 21. I really think with Shein we're kind of seeing the introduction of like retailers as fads almost, and whoever can captivate online attention and use that to bring attention to themselves. The finances really confuse me as well. When I was doing research on this, I looked into how they order kind of batches per style. And it mentioned that they order much smaller batches than their ultra-fast-fashion retailers like Booboo or ASOS, for example. So they can quickly ramp up production in case something goes viral. And if an item flops on the site, they can just be like, oh, it flopped, it's no big deal, but still, you're right.It doesn't add up to me. So I'm not sure really how long they can last, but just given how much they've raked in over the past, you know, eight years of operation, it seems like they're able to still keep going.

Scott Rogowsky: So to wrap things up and give our listeners a solid takeaway here, this company, Shein, which I've never heard of, didn't know how to pronounce, probably most men have not heard of them, even most women over the age of 35, apparently that's the cutoff 18 to 35 is the demo. I just missed the cutoff, but this massive company, which is rivaling Amazon for its e-commerce fashion revenue streams is operating on several keys here. They've got the SEO optimization and customer data, which they use to drive designs and respond to customer trends. They are avoiding taxes, every which way that's possible with their location, their Chinese manufacturing, the import and export tariff avoidance. They have this direct-to-consumer operation so there there's no brick and mortars, no overhead in that regard. Does that sum it up pretty well? 

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, pretty much. 

Scott Rogowsky: Okay, so I learned something I, at the same time, I want to see them shutter as quickly as possible, because I don't love, I don’t love what they're doing to the environment. I mean, I'm not into this fast-fashion thing. What happened to things that last to durability? And I mean, I have vintage t-shirts, these shirts were made 30 years ago. I'm still wearing them. That's my wheelhouse. That's apparently not, not the trend these days.

 

Nora Ali: That's because you haven't tried the criss-cross top from Shein that has gone viral on TikTok and every girl who calls themselves, that girl is wearing that criss-cross top. All right. Well, Terry Nguyen is a reporter for The Goods at Vox. The name of her article is, “Shein is the Future of Fast Fashion. Is That a Good Thing?” Terry, where can listeners go to find you online or follow more of your work?

Terry Nguyen: Yeah, so I write for Vox’s The Goods vertical. We are at vox.com. I'm also on Twitter @terrygtnguyen.

Nora Ali: Amazing. Terry, thank you so much for joining us on Business Casual and teaching us all things Shein. We loved it. 

Terry Nguyen: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is so fun.

Scott Rogowsky: That was amazing to hear from Terry Nguyen about the complexities behind Shein and fast fashion. But now we want to hear from you. Tell us where you stand on fast fashion companies like Shein, and why. Send us an email at Business Casual at Morning Brew dot com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's B I Z casual pod. With your stories.

Nora Ali: You can also leave a voice memo on our website, Business Casual dot FM, or give us a ring. Leave an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 8 6 2 2 9 5 1 1 3 5 that's 8 6 2 2 9 5 1 1 3 5 as Business Casual grows, we're very excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line, and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode. 

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins, additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Alan Haburchak is the Director of Audio Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia and Jessica Cohen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear candy. And we'd love it if you'd give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Don't be a stranger!

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.