May 26, 2022

Playboy’s Pivot to a ‘Pleasure and Leisure’ Brand

“Today's Playboy is not Hugh Hefner's Playboy.”


Nora and Scott speak with Ben Kohn, President, Chief Executive Officer & Director at PLBY Group, Inc, about the future of Playboy, where the brand is headed and its current development into spaces like NFTs, and an offering called Centerfold (which has been compared to OnlyFans) and more. Presented by Grayscale. 

 

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Video Editors: Mckenzie Marshall and Christie Muldoon

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Holly Van Leuven 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Full transcript for this episode below. 

Transcript

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: Scott, I learned something about you today.

Scott Rogowsky: What did you learn?

Nora Ali: You love Playboy. You have a long history with it, my friend.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh my gosh. I really do.

Nora Ali: Goodness gracious.

Scott Rogowsky: Not until this interview had I really thought about it or considered how big a role, how large a shadow Playboy cast over my life. As a youth growing up, I can't say I've thought about Playboy much lately, but growing up, it was this symbol, a symbol of adulthood, a symbol of some exclusive, before the term "paywall." It was like this gated area of life, frankly. And it meant, it stood in for smoking and drinking and that debonair lifestyle that you watch TV, you watch films, you see it portrayed. And maybe this is more personal to me, but I so badly wanted to be older. I wanted to be 18, but as I relate in our interview with Ben, I did make a pact with my friend Vito in kindergarten. We said "We're going to get an apartment together. We're going to move in together and we're gonna get that Playboy subscription." That's going to be, like, that's it. That's the end of life in our minds.

Nora Ali: Goals, man.

Scott Rogowsky: Nothing else needs to be done.

Nora Ali: Yeah, but I mean, you're right. Playboy represented so many things to so many people. It's been this meaningful brand for good or for bad for most of our lives. But I loved hearing from Ben Kohn, the president and CEO, that they're definitely looking forward, staying current with the times and technology and focusing on creators. So let's get into it. Today, we talk to Ben Kohn, who is the president, CEO, and director at Playboy Group Inc. He joined us to talk about Playboy's transition from adult entertainment company to a sex positivity lifestyle brand and digital business. Playboy recently broke into the NFT space, which we discuss, making $12 million in NFT sales in 2021. They also recently launched a creator-led digital platform called Centerfold where creators can offer personal subscriptions for their own content. We'll get to our conversation with Ben after this quick break.

Scott Rogowsky: Ben, it's a pleasure to meet you. This is really a personal thrill to be talking to the CEO of Playboy magazine. If you told me in kindergarten when I made a pact with my best friend Vito, we said, "When we turn 18, we're going to rent an apartment together and we're going to get a Playboy magazine subscription." That was our dream. That was our goal as kindergartners. But I'm curious, Ben, because you're in a position now, you've actually acquired Playboy. This iconic magazine, this brand. There's so much weight and meaning to the name Playboy, to that bunny logo we're seeing here. When you look at that logo, what do you see? What is Playboy in your mind?

Ben Kohn: What do I see? I see one of the most valuable pieces of IP in the world and one of the most valuable brands in the world. This is a brand whose 69th anniversary is this year, December of this year. It's a brand that drives billions of dollars of consumer spend. And so when you think about what would it cost to replicate that today, and I would challenge you that you couldn't do that. That is priceless. You can't replicate the IP that we have. And then you think about where the consumer is today. We sit at the perfect intersection of the digital and physical world. So all of that gives us sort of an endless runway moving forward.

Nora Ali: Ben, you said the brand has sort of always been about personal freedoms and sex positivity. You said it's one of the most valuable pieces of IP in the world. It does have a little bit of a complicated past, though. What are some of maybe the biggest misconceptions about the brand that you want to dispel for our Gen Z, our millennial listeners? And how would you characterize that new identity succinctly?

Ben Kohn: When I took over as CEO, this was a brand that probably 80% of consumer spend against the brand was male. It was a brand whose internal workforce was probably 80% male. And our average age of our audience was north of 45. The problem with the brand was people in the United States had associated Playboy with Hugh Hefner. And I think as Hefner tried to stay relevant as he got older, which was a mistake, what he should have done was turn the company over. He took the brand in directions that I wouldn't have gone in. And I don't think the team would've gone in today. Today's Playboy is not Hugh Hefner's Playboy. And so the question is how did we revitalize the brand? I was very lucky to hire Rachel Webber as my chief brand officer. Rachel joined me from National Geographic where she had been the chief digital officer. And what we did was we went back and we looked at, really, what was that core DNA? This was a lifestyle brand all along. Its first consumer product was a pair of cufflinks. It's a brand who had one of the most profitable casinos per foot in the world in London, who had resorts in Jamaica. And we went back and we looked at sort of what was the core DNA this brand was founded on. The brand itself was founded as a libertarian point of view brand, a brand about personal freedoms and sex positivity. And I think those things today are as important as they were in 1953 in the Puritan society that existed then. The causes that we have fought for have not changed. And I think they have remained top of the mind in consumers' minds for the past 69 years. And so what we tried to do is bring that forward as we revitalized the brand. And I think that's really what's resonated with audiences. I think it is when Rachel first was interviewing here and she put on a Playboy jacket and I can't remember if it was a Joyrich jacket or one of our phenomenal partners, but she said, "Holy shit, I feel like a badass. This is counter culture to some extent." And I think that's that emotional connection, Scott, you were even talking about that this brand elicits in people and why this brand has stayed so relevant for the past 69 years.

Scott Rogowsky: So you're talking about the real reach that Playboy had in terms of the casino, and you had the mansions and the clubs, and the culture has changed in the last five, 10 years. And now it's a matter of how does Playboy and this new identity fit into the new paradigm that we're living in? I'm just curious, are your ambitions to get it back to where it was in terms of just how big of an imprint it had? And a lot of that was Hugh Hefner. You mentioned that part of the issue was towards the end of his life, he held on for too long. But in those early days he was hosting the TV show. He was making the rounds on the talk shows. He tied himself to that brand inextricably and it worked for a time.

Ben Kohn: I think the brand was so much larger than one individual. And so I think moving forward, we don't want to tie our brand to one individual. We work with some of the greatest influencers and celebrities today. And so when you look at the people we've worked with over the past four or five years since I came in, it's Travis Scott, it's Kylie Jenner, it's Lizzo, it's Bad Bunny, it's Cardi B. I think the brand is more relevant today than at any time in its history. Our business model is different. Our goal and what we've been working on in the past few years is moving from a licensing business to a direct to consumer business. So we own the relationship with the consumer. And what we're building now with our new creator-led platform, Centerfold, is exactly that. Our relationship historically with creators stopped with the magazine. We now have a platform that will be integrated into Playboy. We will have an ongoing relationship with some of the world's best creators. And then we will continue to bring back the phenomenal editorial that we used to have, but just in a way that makes sense for audiences today, in a way that's consumable for audiences. So a great example of that is we formed a partnership around the Playboy interview, having modern-day actors reenacting famous Playboy interviews from the past. It's the same thing we're going to plan on doing with 20 Questions. It's us hosting the Met Gala after-party at the Boom Boom Room with Cardi B, who is our creator director in residence. That event generated two billion press impressions.

Nora Ali: Yeah, I mean, it's clear you've found a new suite of talent, of celebrities, of known names to be tied to Playboy as you're moving away from the Hugh Hefner legacy. But the brand is still inextricably linked to that name. And in January, of course, there was this A&E docuseries called Secrets of Playboy that was released. And that did uncover a lot of the dark side of the legacy of the brand. That included allegations from many women of coercion, sexual assault, drugging, manipulation. And clearly that is very different from what the Playboy of today is. But this did prompt your team to pen an open letter to respond to this? What contributed to your team in deciding to publish this letter? And what did you hope it communicated in light of this docuseries?

Ben Kohn: I think what we communicated and we stand by our statement 100% is today's Playboy is not Hugh Hefner's Playboy. I will argue with you that I'm not sure today's generation actually links the rabbit head with Hugh Hefner. I think that is a legacy issue, not a current issue, but we fully support the women coming forward and telling their stories. And the biggest thing for us is learning from it. And so our whole executive team has watched it. We've listened and we've talked about it, and those are things that can impact how we operate moving forward and how society operates moving forward.

Scott Rogowsky: I think it's time to take a quick break with Ben Kohn, but more on Playboy's identity transformation when we return. We're talking about Playboy's legacy vis a vis where Playboy stands today and moving forward. You've made so many decisions lately. Like you mentioned, the creative director, photo director roles are now both filled by women for the first time in Playboy's history. And there's this new generation, these millennials, these Gen Zers, who are discovering the brand for the first time. There was an article in The New York Times, Jessica Bennett pointed out in 2019, will millennials save Playboy? And in the article, Playboy's previous chief content officer, Jimmy Jellinek, said, "We always believed in what I call death with dignity. We never saw any way out of the spiral that we were in. No amount of reinvention, of taking out the nudity, of making it more interesting to millennials. So we decided let's be as good as we can be in the context of what we are." There could be an argument Playboy had its time, had its run, let it die with dignity. But that's not your take here. It's clearly worth it to you to try to reinvent the brand rather than leaving it in its time. What's this opportunity, the main opportunity that drove you to capture this and move it forward?

Ben Kohn: I don't believe what Jimmy said is accurate at all. I think the main opportunity was this is one of the greatest pieces of IP that stood for these personal freedoms. These causes this company had fought for for years, whether that's sexual freedom or civil rights, freedom of expression. And I think those causes are as relevant today, if not more relevant, than ever before. If you think about what's going on today in the Supreme Court or what's rumored to be happening with the potential overturning of Roe versus Wade, this is a company that fought for women's reproductive rights, that Ruth Bader Ginsburg, former Supreme Court justice, wrote the company a letter while she was the lead lawyer for the ACLU, thanking the company for its stance in women's reproductive rights as we published articles and letters from women at the time. And so all of these causes, this company fought for for 50 plus, 60 plus years, are still relevant today.

Nora Ali: And do you still hope that the platform is a thought leader on that front, and will continue to publish stories about these increasingly important issues like Roe v. Wade?

Ben Kohn: A hundred percent. I think it's core to our DNA. And we did that a week ago. We published articles that we had published in the past on this subject. And so obviously I want to respect the country that we live in. It's the greatest country in the world. I want to respect the separation of power we have between our three branches of government, but at the right time, our political stance, our policy stance, because I really don't like to get into politics. I really want focus on policy. Our policy stance as a company has not changed from where it was 40 years ago.

Nora Ali: Yeah. And it's increasingly clear that brands that sell products and sell services still need to be strong in the stances that they have as a company, even if it alienates some of their user base. So it is appreciated that you still stand firm on some of those issues. And you had also mentioned overall that the business model itself is different now. I know you mentioned the sales in China, for example, e-commerce sales, you're expanding products for consumers in India. What are you most optimistic about as far as the new business model and the new streams of revenue for Playboy?

Ben Kohn: I'm most optimistic about the flywheel that we are creating internally. And that starts with our creator-led platform, Centerfold, which will be merged into Playboy eventually. It really starts with the creators. That's what I think at the end of the day built Playboy over the years, was the company working with and featuring some of the world's greatest creators. And so whether it was the television show in the past or the magazine today, we have this digital platform that really sits at the intersection of both the digital and physical worlds. And so as we move forward with our creators, our creators can become affiliates to promote our consumer products. They're already wearing them in an unpaid fashion. We have the ability to straddle both the physical and digital worlds from an event perspective. So this summer in Vegas, we are doing a partnership with the Tao group, Playboy summer Friday parties. We have historically hosted our Midsummer Night's Dream party in Vegas in real life. But last year we tested a number of different parties in the metaverse as well, with our very successful NFT drops last year. And so I can't think of many other brands outside of Disney that can really straddle both the physical and digital worlds and that expands to hospitality down the road. It expands to gaming. There's a number of different areas that have huge opportunities for us from a macro perspective that we can go into. We're staying extremely focused in 2022 on our business priorities, which is the continued expansion of our DTC efforts and the integration of the companies we bought last year, as well as the build-out of our Centerfold platform. But when you think about it in an organic runway moving forward, this company has sort of an endless runway in front of it.

Scott Rogowsky: Truly extraordinary, Ben. The more I hear from you and dig into what's happening with Playboy, even going to playboy.com for example, and it's just shop, the loungewear, best sellers. You got Amber Rose with the Centerfold. There's the NFTs, there's accessories. You could buy the covers, but that magazine is gone. I mean, and that was a decision you made, right? In terms of you oversaw the last print edition coming out. There's a "read the articles" header on the website, but these are archived articles. Is there any new journalism? Do you have any writers still on staff?

Ben Kohn: We do produce new journalism or new content. But what I would say is, stay tuned. We have something really exciting happening over the next few months with redoing all of our digital properties, integrating things into one property. And with that, bringing back some of the famous, what I would say is franchises that existed in the magazine, but in content formats that make sense for consumers today. I think it's important to remember what is a magazine, right? A magazine is a compilation of multiple different articles or multiple different franchises. 20 Questions, the Playboy interview, et cetera. And so we can bring those forward in distribution mediums that make sense for consumers today. Most consumers today don't pick up a 120-page magazine and read it front to back. So moving forward, based on when we look at our traffic in total, we see about 93% of our total traffic, whether it's coming to Centerfold or playboy.com or to our shop, it's coming off of mobile devices. And so for us, it's a question of how do you produce content in a format that makes sense for someone on a mobile device?

Nora Ali: Well, I think we're excited to see what the new features are and all the new launches you have coming up, but let's take a moment to take a quick break. More with Ben when we come back. Ben, you alluded to Centerfold a few times, so let's dig into that a little bit more. So what is the promise of Centerfold and how is it different from, say, OnlyFans or other platforms like that?

Ben Kohn: Well, I think there are three things that you need to make a creator-led platform successful. One is brand, which I don't think there's any comparison between Playboy and OnlyFans. Two is, you need great product, and we have been very successful in hiring a team recently to help us. And so there's pretty dramatic improvements that people have seen both from the consumer side, but that are also happening behind the scenes that people haven't seen. And the third is creators. And I think this company has worked with some of the greatest creators over the past 69 years. And so when we think about what Centerfold is, it's our creator-led platform. I don't view OnlyFans as a competitor. We have very different content guidelines than that, but more importantly, we have the rabbit head behind this. This is an aspirational brand. And I think that we are being very careful in how we roll this out. It's going according to our plan and what we're focused on. So I would say, stay tuned as we move forward towards the summer. But Centerfold allows us to work with musicians, with artists, with models, with all sorts of different influencers, really leveraging and bringing back a version of the Playboy magazine as a discovery tool.

Nora Ali: I think that might be Scott's dream come true, is a Playboy stage for comedy, eh? But Ben, can you just walk us through a little bit more of the specific creator journey in Centerfold? How do they get onboarded, the decision of what content to put out there, the revenue share model, any specifics you can provide?

Ben Kohn: So the revenue share model is very simple. It's an 80/20 split between the creator and the company. Creators get onboarded by joining our wait list. And from that wait list, we have a committee internally, and we will onboard creators and then multiple different product features today, and new ones coming this summer. But today, creators have the ability to have a direct relationship with their fan-based subscription, through premium unlocks of content, through livestreaming. So a great example of that was Cardi B livestreaming for over an hour from the Met Gala after-party at the Boom Boom Room. And then moving forward, that product suite will get enhanced with consumer products. We have a really interesting NFT and blockchain initiative that we're exploring as part of the platform and a whole host of other features moving forward. But it's a partnership between Playboy and the creators moving forward. And then as we think about that, as I said, the magazine and the relaunch of that, but in a way that makes sense for today, integrated into the platform, we have these unbelievable discovery tools where I think we can help creators build their audiences beyond their organic audience.

Scott Rogowsky: There's something I remember from all those centerfolds that came out every month, and it was a common theme. The women would write a little bio and they would always say, like, it was my dream to be in the magazine, my dream to be a centerfold. That was an aspiration for so many women. Is there a similar idea you're driving here with Centerfold, the platform, where now this is the new digital version of being the centerfold in the magazine? It's getting your content on this platform, having a place to own more of it now, frankly. Because now you could be constantly putting out new content, getting that 80% of the split and making way more money on Centerfold, the platform, than you would as a centerfold in the magazine.

Ben Kohn: It's 100%. And so that is the future. That's how we wanted to work with creators moving forward. I think it's a fundamental shift between Playboy being the arbitrator, versus the creator being the arbitrator of what they want to put out there. And so I think that is the society we live in and I think it's a great thing. And we're happy to partner with the creators to leverage the power of the Playboy brand to help them build their audiences. I'm really excited by what that means, being at the center of our ecosystem moving forward. The other thing they get to work with is there's abilities to model Playboy clothing, there's abilities to become affiliates, there's ability to have fashion collabs. So we've done that historically. We've worked with Lana Rhoades on a company we own called Yandy developing lingerie. And so as we think through some of the creators that we have, that's exactly what we're planning moving forward, working through some of the consumer products. I think that is a true differentiator on OnlyFans. I think a lot of our creators have come to us and have wanted to work with Playboy largely because some of them have not been on OnlyFans because of sort of the reputation of OnlyFans in the marketplace. And I think, again, when you think through what are the three things that you need to be successful in this area, it comes down to brand being first and foremost. Having great product and then having great creators. And I think this brand, given its aspirational nature, attracts the best creators.

Nora Ali: Playboy is tapping into all of the future tech, future buzzwords, Web3, the metaverse, NFTs. We learned that Playboy earned $12 million from NFT sales alone in 2021. We see stories of failed NFTs all the time. And people still confused on how to get in the system in the most efficient and best way. Why do you think Playboy's strategy breaking into the NFT market worked out so well? What were some of the points of strategy that you would advise other brands who are trying to get into NFTs?

Ben Kohn: Well, I think we were very successful last year, but it was really a test year for us with NFTs. And so we tested a number of different things. We commissioned new art with the artists Slimesunday and Blake Kathryn, really looking at the archive but not exploiting the archive, but using it as inspiration for our first drop last summer in June. We then launched a legacy piece of content. So it was a 1970 picture of a Playboy Bunny from the Miami Club waterskiing in South Beach. That sold for about $60,000. And then we launched our avatars in the fall. What we're focused on is a combination of working with the creators on Centerfold, combined with a 10 million piece archive of content we have. A 5,000 piece art collection, and really thinking through, moving forward, how do we leverage the blockchain to build a sustainable recurring revenue base that can benefit not only the company, but our creators moving forward? And so without going into too many details on it, it's something that we are very focused on. I think the NFT market is still in its infancy. It will have ups and downs along the way. But I think long term, when you sort of think about the macro shift in society, think about gaming for example, and Fortnite and skins within Fortnite. I think people's view of things that are important to them, it's not just on their walls, but it's also in their digital wallets. And so I think we have one of the most iconic archives of Americana for the last 69 years. And there's different ways to exploit that over time. We're just being very patient right now and making sure that when we do launch our next NFT blockchain project, it's done in a sustainable recurring revenue base.

Scott Rogowsky: 10 million pieces of content in the archive. Sounds like you might need to be hiring some more people to help sift through all that. I'm available for part-time work, Ben. Just throwing that out.

Ben Kohn: Anytime you want to come out and sift through it, I'll make that available.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm in LA, I'm close. Just to wrap things up here, Ben, as we look towards the future, there is potentially billions of dollars to be made in this Web3—trillions, who knows? Where else do you see Playboy expanding into that realm? I've heard talk of Playboy clubs and Playboy mansions returning in the metaverse. Is that on the roadmap for you?

Ben Kohn: We are staying very, very focused this year. We have two priorities, as I said. The continued expansion of our DTC business and building out Centerfold. When I think through the future of this flywheel and where we sit at the intersection of both the digital and physical worlds, 100%, I think this brand is best when people can experience it live, and that live in today's definition doesn't mean that you have to go to a club in Las Vegas or Miami or other places. That you can actually go into Sandbox or the metaverse or other places to experience it. And so what that allows us to do is to reach a much larger audience than one physical club by itself could reach. And so I see it long term as a combination of the two.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, Ben, I'm staying very focused on quizzing because it's time now for Quizness Casual, the Business Casual quiz. And for today's quiz, we are going to be putting Ben Kohn in the hot seat. We'll see how hot it gets, but you do have Nora here to lean on, Ben. She is your co-captain, co-teammate to answer these questions. And they are about Playboy and the famous brand and legacy that we're talking about. So here we go. Qumero numero uno, what was Playboy Magazine almost originally called? Debonair, Club International, Barely Legal, or Stag Party?

Ben Kohn: Stag Party.

Nora Ali: He knows it.

Scott Rogowsky: This man's done his research.

Ben Kohn: That's probably where my knowledge stops, but we'll keep going.

Scott Rogowsky: Can you imagine? Kids, hey, did you get the latest issue of Stag Party? Yeah. Stag Party back in 1953 was what Mr. Hefner was wanting to call it. There was another magazine called Stag magazine so he got talked out of it. And Playboy, I think Playboy worked out. It's a good name.

Ben Kohn: Yeah. Thank God for [inaudible 00:26:57].

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, exactly. All right. So one for one here. Next question. Who has appeared in Playboy the most? And I should probably specify, I guess it's Playboy print edition. Who appeared in Playboy the most? Pamela Anderson, Carmen Electra, Jenny McCarthy, or Cindy Crawford?

Ben Kohn: Pamela Anderson.

Nora Ali: Look at that.

Scott Rogowsky: Hard to beat. 1989 was her first appearance, young Pamela, and has appeared 13 times since then. More than anyone else in history, with her last cover in 2011. All right. Final question. You're two for two, Ben. You're kicking ass here. Which of the following celebrities was banned from the Playboy mansion for trying to sneak in a non-famous friend? This is an odd, fun story.

Ben Kohn: Nora, this is all you.

Nora Ali: Okay. We'll see.

Scott Rogowsky: Was it Chris Pine, Luke Wilson, Leonardo DiCaprio, or Gerard Butler?

Nora Ali: I have no clue. Who is the sneakiest person of this bunch?

Ben Kohn: They've all been there. So probably Leonardo DiCaprio.

Nora Ali: Does he seem sneaky to you? Yeah. Let's, let's go with it. I'm feeling it.

Scott Rogowsky: Would he try to sneak someone in, you think?

Nora Ali: Like a young, non-famous girlfriend or something?

Scott Rogowsky: We're going with Leo.

Nora Ali: Unless you want to point us in a different direction, Scott. It's not Leo. All right. All right. Understood. Chris Pine, Luke Wilson...

Scott Rogowsky: Close, though.

Nora Ali: ...or Gerard Butler. Luke, the other L? Luke Wilson?

Scott Rogowsky: See, Nora knows my clues here. Nora picked up on it.

Nora Ali: Is that okay, Ben? Can we go with Luke?

Ben Kohn: Nora, as I said in the beginning, this is all you.

Nora Ali: Okay. Luke Wilson.

Scott Rogowsky: All right, Nora's taking this one and it is Luke Wilson who was banned from the Playboy mansion for 18 months after trying to sneak in a friend and pretending it was his brother, Owen Wilson.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: And this is Luke Wilson's quote. He said "I had to make a tearful phone call to Mary, the woman who kind of runs the operation at the Playboy mansion. And I said, Mary, what I did was stupid. It was wrong. Hef's been so generous to me. I actually did, I think I actually cried on the phone." That was Luke Wilson apologizing, but hey, two, three for three. We'll give you three for three with Nora coming out there. Mazel tov, congratulations. That was one of the best performances we've seen here on the quiz.

Ben Kohn: Teammates. Perfect.

Nora Ali: Great job. Thank you, Ben, for joining us on the pod.

Ben Kohn: Thank you, guys. Really appreciate you having me.

Scott Rogowsky: We love hearing from our BC fam, and we want to hear your Playboy party jokes. So why not share one with us? Send us an email at businesscasual@morningbrew.com, or DM us on Twitter at @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Z casual pod, with your thoughts and jokes.

Nora Ali: You could also leave your jokes via voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old-fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line, and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from, so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is tastefully and artfully produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production and sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Sarah Singer's our VP of multimedia, Holly Van Leuven is our fact checker. Music in this episode from Daniel Marcus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for that ear candy. And we love it if you give us a great rating and review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.