Aug. 11, 2022

Making Luxe Fashion Rental Profitable Post-Pandemic

Rent the Runway’s revenue saw 100% growth year-over-year in Q1

Nora chats with Jenn Hyman, CEO and cofounder of Rent the Runway, about how the company emerged from the pandemic as a broader and stronger business while making major changes that have paved the way for the company’s long-term profitability. Plus, why Jenn says that entrepreneurs ​​should “talk to the people who are most likely to hate your idea.” For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out


Host: Nora Ali

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Video Editor: Sebastian Vega

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 


Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at


Nora Ali: For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, bringing you conversations with people you know, and some you may not know yet, to make business less intimidating. Because money talks, but it does not have to be dull. I'm your host, Nora Ali. Now let's get down to business.

During the depths of the Covid pandemic, the last thing we were thinking about was finding a new dress for a weekend of back-to-back weddings. And that did not bode well for Rent the Runway, an e-commerce fashion service that enables people to rent designer clothing and accessories for events.

But over the past two years, Jenn Hyman, Rent the Runway's cofounder and CEO, has guided the company through the worst of Covid to the high of going public in October 2021. And in Jenn's words, Rent the Runway came out of the pandemic as a broader and stronger business. They did anything but sit around just waiting for business to come back. In fact, Rent the Runway made some pretty big changes. They adjusted the subscription model so it appealed to a wider audience, meaning more types of plans, more customization. They further automated their facilities to make sure shipments would get to customers faster. And they developed new ways to keep clothing in a like-new condition for longer. And longevity of a clothing item means that item can get rented more, which means more money for Rent the Runway. 

The folks at Rent the Runway also realized that despite the ease of sweatpants in a purely work-from-home environment, people do still want to dress up for work. Many workers miss the opportunity to express themselves. And Jenn told us that customers are looking for more versatility in their wardrobes. And that they're looking for added variety because of increasingly eclectic workplaces. Jenn and team also noticed that customers are creating more celebratory moments in their lives, even more so than pre-pandemic. More celebration means additional moments to rent luxury clothing, even if it's just for a girls' night out. J

Jenn also shared some great advice for aspiring entrepreneurs and business leaders relating to her own early experiences reaching out to designers and department stores. Notably, try to seek out people who you think may not believe in your idea. She said, quote, "You have to talk to the people who are most likely to hate your idea. You have to think about whether this idea is truly worthy of the next 10 to 15 years of your life. It is a life commitment." Our conversation with Jenn Hyman is after the break. Jenn, welcome. I'm so excited to chat with you.

Jenn Hyman: Hi, Nora.

Nora Ali: Full disclosure; I am a Rent the Runway member. And I go off and on. Sometimes I'm a member, sometimes I'm not. But it is peak wedding season, I feel like. So that's why I got my membership back up and running. But Jenn, before we get a little bit more into Rent the Runway, I would love to start with a little icebreaker, if you're down. We like to call this segment Professional Pet Peeves. So I'd like to know, if you could wave a magic wand and get rid of some commonly accepted professional courtesy, a thing that we do in the workplace, whether it's in person or remote, what is the thing that annoys you that you would love to get rid of?

Jenn Hyman: Honestly, I've already got rid of this in my life, but I'd like to get rid of Slack.

Nora Ali: Oh. Huh.

Jenn Hyman: I just think that continuous communication doesn't make anyone more innovative, smarter, more productive, and/or more efficient. And I think that just as social media has kind of robbed us of our brain power and time and it sucks away on average five hours a day from everyone's lives, I honestly think Slack is doing that as well.

Nora Ali: What is the preferred communication internally at Rent the Runway?

Jenn Hyman: Slack. I'm just the only person who's not on Slack in the company, because I feel like for my job and wanting to think about the future of the company and think about the customer, it would honestly take away so much from my ability to be strategic.

Nora Ali: You have the power to say, "I'm not going to be on Slack." But most employees whose companies use Slack have to be on Slack because everyone else is. All right, more on Rent the Runway. So due to the pandemic, obviously it's been a really tough past couple of years, but you all reported quarterly earnings earlier this summer, and revenue's up 100% year over year. Congratulations. Would you say Rent the Runway has bounced back? How is business?

Jenn Hyman: I would say that we are bouncing back, and we're bouncing back into a world that's very different than the world that we left in 2019. We're seeing that number one, the world is different in that it's certainly more celebratory. So you started off this conversation talking about a weddings boom, and that's certainly happening. But the other thing that's happening is just we, as people, are finding more occasions to just celebrate our lives. We're having more dinners out, we're going to more concerts, we're taking more vacations. We're trying to just take advantage of our time differently, because we were trapped away for two years without the ability to experience life fully. So what that means is we're actually seeing the most celebratory joyful clothing ever being rented. We're seeing that social life is comprising a much larger percentage of how people are utilizing Rent the Runway than it ever has before. So that's great. 

But another major change that we're seeing, and I still think that it's TBD as to what's going to happen, is we certainly have not seen that people are back in the office like they were in 2019. I don't know what's going to happen in terms of how people work in the future. And all of these things affect our business. Because how people fundamentally live on a day-to-day basis and how they dress is intrinsic to kind of how they're choosing to live. If you go into an office, you dress differently than when you're working from home. So the business has come back with, I think, both higher margins than we had before, with a better cost structure than we had before, and I think more strategic engines of growth. So we're now able to generate revenue from a reserve business, where we rent for special occasions, from a subscription business, as well as from a resale business. And so we're able to kind of turn on those engines when they're most appropriate.

So for instance, in the summer we flex resale, because that's a time that people want to buy more items at high value. Or the fall is top wedding season of the year, so you'll see us really try to boost up the reserve business at that period of time. So it's great to kind of come out of the pandemic with more levers to be successful than we had even before.

Nora Ali: Can you talk to me a little bit more about how you're achieving those higher margins, and how you considered reconstructing the cost structure? Because as a customer, I always wonder, how do you determine at what price points you can rent certain items? What are the discounts, depending on the designer or the season or the style? Just very high level, how does all of that math work out?

Jenn Hyman: The major change that we made in the business, and we actually started to make this change even before the pandemic, was we switched our subscription plans from being plans that were one size fits all, where every customer paid $159 a month, and for that received an unlimited number of shipments and therefore an unlimited number of items per month, to one where our customers pay for their usage. And that enables more diversity of customers, because we have customers now who decide, "You know what? I only want to pay $90 a month and I want to receive four designer items per month." Up to customers who want to use us 16 times per month.

And then from there, we actually allow the subscribers to personalize and to add additional items into their subscription plans or to add additional swaps. So what that's done is basically correlated engagement levels with how much money we make. It used to be when we had a one size fits all plan that the higher customer engagement became, the lower our gross margins were.

And so you had these disincentives, where I wanted to deliver these incredible experiences to customers to make them want to use this every day, but that was really depletive to our margins. Now, when customers want to engage more deeply with Rent the Runway and use us more days of the month, they're actually adding additional items into their subscription, they're paying us more. That revenue often is higher-margin revenue for us because it means that we're shipping them the same package with five items in it or six items in it, as opposed to the four items we would've shipped them before. So that change has really nearly doubled the contribution margins of the business.

At the same time, we also did things to change the cost structure of Rent the Runway quite dramatically. So we lost a hundred million dollars in revenue between 2019 and 2020. And we therefore just had these two facilities without a lot happening in them. And so we took the opportunity to add a really substantial amount of automation into the facilities, to add even more proprietary technology and data into the facilities that did two things. One is, it dramatically lowered the cost of fulfillment from a labor perspective. So we mentioned that our non-transportation fulfillment expenses went down 30% year over year between 2020 to 2021. And that's because of a lot of the automation and innovation that we did within the facilities. But the other thing that we did is because we added more proprietary data and technology, we were also able to extend the lifetime of garments. So we also reduce the product deactivation rate by 30% year over year. So we're doing a better job at keeping our clothing in like-new condition longer, which means we'll have to buy less clothing in the future, which also decreases the amount that we have to spend on product as a percentage of revenue.

So we tried as much as possible to turn the lemons that were Covid into lemonade, and come out of Covid as a strategically broader and better business. And I actually think that we have. So we've restored the business to now higher sub count and on our way to higher revenue than we had in 2019. But that revenue's coming in at a higher margin, at a better free cash flow margin. We feel confident about our pathway to profitability. And that feels really exciting.

Nora Ali: So you were far from just sitting around during the pandemic, waiting for business to come back. Everything was made more efficient, more strategic. And I even noticed as a customer recently where the items will arrive sooner than I expected, and it just feels even more efficient than pre-pandemic, frankly. All right. We're going to take a very quick break. More with Jenn when we come back.

Jenn, I'd love to talk a little bit about the early days of Rent the Runway. I know this is a story that you've told many times. But the most interesting thing to me is how you had cold emailed or cold reached out to Diane von Furstenberg. And this is something that I get asked about a lot is, what makes for a good cold outreach? Is that cool? Is that uncool? What did you actually write to her, and why do you think she responded when you were trying to talk about Rent the Runway for the first time?

Jenn Hyman: When we reached out in this kind of cold email to 10 different versions of or whatever we assumed her email address would be, it was a time that people actually didn't receive as many emails. So right now I receive hundreds of cold emails a day, and everyone's like, "My own version of DVF." And the problem with that methodology in 2022 is that people receive thousands of emails per day. So first of all, sending an email in 2008 was more of a way to stand out than it necessarily is today. So I think that the cold email has to take on kind of a new vibe, a new personality for 2022. I don't know what it would be. Maybe it's dming me on TikTok or something, or creating a video about...

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Jenn Hyman: A direct video. I don't know what it would be to get someone's attention today, but it was certainly something where she read the email, whereas there's no way in today's world that I could get through all of my emails in a single day in terms of reading them. So it would just be really hard to get that same sort of response. So I don't think we said anything particularly special. We certainly flaunted that we were two women at Harvard Business School. So we were trying to use that brand name to get the meeting and that we had an idea for her. This is where I really attribute it to gratitude to DVF that she said, "Yeah, I'll meet with you." So it takes a certain type of person who's going to agree every once in a while to give people a chance. And luck, the good luck that she decided to agree to that meeting. And sometimes the greatest things in life just happen via luck.

Nora Ali: Yeah. Yeah. But you had the wherewithal to even send that email and to have the confidence to do so. And I think that's good advice, where yes, back then people weren't receiving as many emails in their inboxes, but it's important now to find a platform in which you don't get inundated if you're trying to reach someone.

So for me, for example, I'm more likely sometimes to respond to a LinkedIn message, a cold LinkedIn message, because I get far fewer LinkedIn messages than emails. So I think that's good advice generally, is to think about where are they not getting inundated.

But another person, Jenn, that you talked to early on was Jim Gold, at the time, was the president of Neiman Marcus. And your approach to talking to Jim Gold was kind of the opposite of DVF, because presumably a department store would be someone who wouldn't want you to exist as Rent the Runway. So is this maybe advice that you might give to founders, is don't just talk to people who you want to partner with or who might be into your business, but also talk to people who might pick it apart and who might initially be opposed to the idea?

Jenn Hyman: I a hundred percent think that you have to talk to the people that are most likely to hate your idea. Because as an entrepreneur, you should actually be the one who's doing the initial vetting of your own idea. You have to think about whether this idea is truly worthy of the next 10 to 15 years of your life, because that's what it really takes to build something into a real sustainable business. It's a life commitment. I think that when you're making a life commitment, like when we make a commitment like marriage, we tend to be very thoughtful about that commitment. Now similarly, when you're going into something like entrepreneurship, you should be just as thoughtful. So I think that what everyone should do is they should think about their idea as if they were a venture capitalist. What are all the risks inherent in this idea, and how can I either knock off those risks one by one or validate that, yes, this is indeed a risk, and I need more time to prove that it's either less of a risk or to prove this wrong in some way?

So one of the major risks in our business from the beginning was, okay, even if we could convince designers to let us acquire inventory from them and let us buy inventory from them, what would happen when the major customers of those designers heard that we were renting currencies and inventory at 90% off the retail price? Would Neiman Marcus and Saks and Nordstrom call the DVFs of the world and say, "Don't work with Rent the Runway." And so I needed to understand what it was that the department stores were facing at that time, and could my idea be something that was actually beneficial to them, as opposed to something that was competitive.

And we did learn through that conversation with Jim and with other leaders of various kind of retailers that retail stores were having a customer acquisition issue in the same way that brands were having a customer acquisition issue. Younger women were not entering those department stores in the same way that they had in previous generations. We were seeing that costs of marketing were going up, that women were more often going to fast fashion and therefore not shopping in the designer channel at all, even when their incomes had gotten to a place where they could afford it. So it was in everyone's incentive: Rent the Runway, Neiman Marcus, and all of the brands, to have younger women develop an affinity for designer brands earlier. And I knew after those conversations that that insight was really key to us building kind of a two-sided platform. One that would benefit customers, but also one that would benefit brands.

Nora Ali: So it ended up being a very validating conversation, even though maybe you thought this would've been a skeptic, Jim Gold, but it ended up being very valuable for you.

Jenn Hyman: Jim Gold was way more of a supporter from the very beginning than some of the designers were. Because Jim was like, "Yeah. Women have been renting the runway from my stores for decades. It's called buying a dress, keeping the tags on and returning it. This is a genius idea. You're taking away my worst customers." He got it, because he saw that behavior every single day. And he understood that his customer at Neiman Marcus was not a 26-year-old woman who was going to a wedding. That wasn't who his customer was. So he's like, "Yeah." And then it's my job to convert them into a customer over time.

The brands were definitely more skeptical from the beginning, because they thought, if you had the option to rent at 90% off, who would ever buy? And I think that what they didn't really think through is that there are items that you always want to buy, because you know that you're going to wear those items for years and years. And that's actually the bread and butter of what these brands sell and how they make money. But there are also items that these designers have always designed, they've never had high sell-through rates because they've been too bold, too trendy, too colorful, too something that you want to wear once and then not want to wear again. And those are the perfect items to actually rent, but they're also the perfect items to use as customer acquisition. Where are you going to acquire a new customer? You're not going to acquire a new customer on that boring black dress. You're going to acquire her on the amazing printed one shoulder ruffled top that she feels amazing in, and takes a photo in and puts it up on social media, and everyone compliments her and she feels like a million bucks. And that's what builds that brand affinity.

Nora Ali: Speaking of putting up a picture on social media, one of the main reasons I use Rent the Runway and some of my friends is because you go to a wedding, you have to put a picture on your Instagram, and then you're never going to wear that same dress to a wedding ever again. But I imagine that the state of social media—I know the state of social media was very different in 2009 in the early days of Rent the Runway. So just talk to me about sort of the state of social media and how that played into your early customers at the time?

Jenn Hyman: This is so funny, because 2009 was on one hand a long time ago, but it wasn't the dark ages. There was social media in 2009. Actually, one of the things that we said when we were kind of thinking about why Rent the Runway would take off is we understood that Facebook would kill outfits. Because at the time, you were posting a photo on Facebook after you attended that party or that wedding, and you felt like you couldn't repeat the outfit again. And that was essentially the "Aha!" moment that I had with my sister, when she bought that really expensive dress that put her into credit card debt. And I was begging her to wear something she already owned. Her response to me was, "I can't, I've been photographed in everything in my closet and the photos are up on Facebook. I need to wear something new." So she was bringing up social media as one of the main things that was putting pressure on her to have more variety in her wardrobe and to show up in a new outfit for that first wedding that she was invited to.

Nora Ali: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. One more very quick break. More with Jenn when we return. One of my favorite things about Rent the Runway is the user generated content, which I'm sure is the case for a lot of your users where you see regular people wearing the clothes. You see their height, their weight, their size. Generally, it's super helpful. Why do you think users are motivated to post this content? Because I'm the kind of person who's like, I don't want to put my photo of me wearing a dress on a website besides my own social media. But why do you think people are so willing to do this and really create that dynamic user generated content?

Jenn Hyman: I think that we're renting product to women that is very different than what they would otherwise buy. We're letting the dream become a practical reality for you. So you've always wanted to wear canary yellow. You never thought it was rational to buy canary yellow, and suddenly because of Rent the Runway, you have the freedom to express yourself in this completely new way and to feel like a new person. And I think that that positivity that you feel about yourself when you Rent the Runway really inspires you to want to pay that feeling forward to other women. We're really not incentivizing our customers financially to be providing these photo reviews. So the only thing in it for customers is to help other women. And I do think that there's a real spirit of the brand that we've created related to women helping women, related to female empowerment, related to feeling confident and happy in your own skin, that I think has permeated the customer experience and has led to a lot of user generated content.

Nora Ali: And the user generated content is part of the robust data that you collect. You know more than designers might know, more than department stores might even know. So how are you using that data to, at the end of the day, really help designers? I know you've worked with Jason Wu before, for example. So tell me a little bit about how that data is used, even outside of just Rent the Runway.

Jenn Hyman: So if you think about the data that designers have had access to in the past, that data was up until the point when an item got sold to a customer. So you might learn, if you're Jason Wu, how many units of this style A you sold versus style B. That's called your sell-through rate. You might learn what sizes are being sold. You would learn this sort of style hit in Atlanta, whereas these are the popular styles in Charlotte. But once those styles are in a customer's closet, it was traditionally a black box in terms of your knowledge of what then happens. Do people wear your clothes? How do they hold up over time? Do they fit? Where do they wear them? How do they feel when they're in them? That's the data that Rent the Runway has. Rent the Runway has the data on how she actually lives in the clothes that she's renting.

So we're requiring her when she's returning items to her subscription to tell us about how items fit, where she wore them, what quality they were in, if she has any kind of details or commentary on the item. And we really deliver that data back to the 800 brands that we work with. And it helps to inform how they manufacture their clothing in the first place, how they fit their clothing so that there's better fit across the board. I think that that's really one of the key competitive advantages that we have as a brand partner, in that the data that we're providing back to these brands is helping them grow and improve their overall business.

So another point of comparison. Let's say I'm Saks and I'm giving great data to my brands and I'm giving them that data up to the point when something is sold. I'm only giving them data that's relevant to improve my business at Saks. I'm saying the Saks customer liked these styles more in New York than LA. This was the sell-through rate at Saks, amongst who our customer base is. When Rent the Runway gives data to Jason Wu and we say, "Hey, Jason, your size eight dresses don't fit anyone. There's something totally f'd up about the way that you're making these, and here is how you need to change fit so that all these different kinds of women can wear the dress. He can use that data and it improves everything. It improves his DTC business. It improves his sell-through rate at Saks. It improves his rent-through rate at Rent the Runway. It helps him grow as a brand and as a designer. And I think that it's so interesting that something that started off as a business that people thought could be competitive to traditional retail channels is now something that is so complementary in terms of new customer acquisition, in terms of data. And I think that Rent the Runway is really creating the entry point into designer fashion in this very experiential unique way.

Nora Ali: Amazing. Well, Jenn, before we let you go, we do have a special segment called Shoot Your Shot. So I would love to know, Jenn, what is your big moonshot idea? This is your biggest ambition, your biggest dream. It could be Rent the Runway related, it could be personal related, family related. This is your chance, Jenn, to shoot your shot.

Jenn Hyman: Well, I don't know if this moonshot idea has massive financial impact, but it certainly would have massive societal impact. I think that we focus a lot on diversity of race and ethnicity and background. And one area that we don't focus on diversity is kind of in terms of like neurodiversity and thinking about the fact that one in every 65 children in the United States is born autistic. And that often, if you're more severely autistic, you're living an entire life where you feel like you are not given entree into employment opportunities. And I think that there's so many jobs, there's so many special talents that autistic people have that they can do 10X better than someone who is not autistic.

For instance, my sister who's autistic has crazy memory, Rain Man-like memory ,and incredible organizational skills and is super type A about everything. And I just think if every company was hiring 5% of their workforce that was autistic, I think that so many families would be in a completely different place. It would lead to so much less stress, less financial burden. It would just help society in a completely, really special, transformative way.

Nora Ali: Yeah. I gotta say, you're the first guest to bring up anything like that. And I appreciate you mentioning it. And it's a very selfless moonshot that you have. So thank you for mentioning that, Jenn. Final, final segment for you. It's a game and we call it Bullish or Bearish. It's very easy. Just a quick lightning round. So this is Bullish or Bearish Fashion Edition. So I'm just going to list you fashion items and you have to tell me if you're bullish or bearish on them.

Jenn Hyman: Sure.

Nora Ali: You into them, or are you not into them?

Jenn Hyman: Sure.

Nora Ali: Okay. First and foremost, I have strong feelings on this one myself. Bullish or bearish: Crocs?

Jenn Hyman: Bearish.

Nora Ali: Oh, no. Why?

Jenn Hyman: I'm sorry.

Nora Ali: Why?

Jenn Hyman: Because everyone else has been so bullish for so long, and they're so ugly.

Nora Ali: They are.

Jenn Hyman: I'm sorry.

Nora Ali: They're so comfy, though.

Jenn Hyman: I know, but wear some rubber Birkenstocks instead.

Nora Ali: Okay. You've got a point.

Jenn Hyman: Those are comfortable and attractive.

Nora Ali: All right, Jenn. That's fine.

Jenn Hyman: Sorry.

Nora Ali: That's okay. I just bought myself a $7...

Jenn Hyman: If that was depressing for you, I'm sorry.

Nora Ali: No, it's okay. You know? It's okay. I'll still put them on my feet. I don't need everyone's approval. Okay. Amazing. Next up. Bullish or bearish: low rise anything. Jeans, skirts. What do you think about low rise coming back?

Jenn Hyman: Not going to come back. Bearish.

Nora Ali: I agree.

Jenn Hyman: Bearish.

Nora Ali: I see the youths, the cool people—I sound like an old person when I say that, but they're wearing low rise skirts. I'm like, I could never, I could never. No, thank you.

Jenn Hyman: Well, here's the thing. When even Paris Hilton in the early aughts, who looked great in everything, even that style doesn't look super great on her. I don't know why anyone would think that it looks great on anyone.

Nora Ali: I know. Yeah.

Jenn Hyman: If she couldn't pull it off then...

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Jenn Hyman: No one can.

Nora Ali: Yeah. I'm a high rise everything kind of gal. Okay. Next up. And this is, it's sad for me that this has kind of become uncool, but bullish or bearish: skinny jeans.

Jenn Hyman: I'm bullish.

Nora Ali: Good. Thank you. I have not quite figured out how to style non-skinny jeans. So I'm glad we're on the same page about that.

Jenn Hyman: They are going to be back.

Nora Ali: Yeah. Okay. Next up. I wear one every day. Bullish or bearish: fanny packs.

Jenn Hyman: Bullish.

Nora Ali: Good. I agree. Do you carry one around?

Jenn Hyman: I don't, but I think that they're very cool and fashionable.

Nora Ali: Okay. Next up, this is kind of a category. Bullish or bearish: Y2K themed clothes.

Jenn Hyman: Well, it's certainly a trend, so I'm going to have to say bullish.

Nora Ali: Have you brought out any of your...or maybe revisited any of the fashions that you adopted in the 2000s, in the 1990s and 2000s?

Jenn Hyman: I can't fit into anything that I wore in the early 2000s. So I haven't been able to go back into my closet to replenish those looks. But no, I haven't brought it back in my own personal style yet. But I will tell you from looking at Rent the Runway data, Y2K is back.

Nora Ali: Okay. Wow. Yeah. I repurchased tattoo necklaces recently for the first time since I was in middle school. And that feels like Y2K. So all right. We're bullish on it. Final thing is bullish or bearish: nail art.

Jenn Hyman: Love it.

Nora Ali: I see a lot of it on...

Jenn Hyman: Yes.

Nora Ali: On TikTok, Instagram. Yes. Okay. Me too.

Jenn Hyman: Love nail art, bullish.

Nora Ali: Okay. On that note, that was fun. Thank you so much for joining us on Business Casual. We appreciate the time, Jenn.

Jenn Hyman: Thank you so much.

Nora Ali: This is Business Casual and I'm Nora Ali. You can follow me on Twitter @NoraKAli, and I would love to hear from you. If you have ideas for episodes, comments, thoughts on episodes you loved, even fun segment ideas, feel free to shoot me a DM, and I will do my very best to respond. You can also reach the BC team by emailing, or call us. That number is 862-295-1135. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And if you like the show, please leave us a rating and a review. It really, really helps us. Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins, with special production help on this episode from Olivia Mead. Additional production, sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Kate Brandt is our fact checker. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali. Keep it business, and keep it casual.