Oct. 4, 2021

Kim Perell: Might as Well Jump, and Just Do the Dang Thing

Entrepreneur Kim Perell on taking risks in your personal and professional life.

Serial entrepreneur, executive and angel investor Kim Perell joins Nora and Scott to talk about the many ups and downs of her career, including how you can take risks and make changes in your own life. She draws on her experience as a digital marketing technology CEO who scaled companies from $0 to $1B in revenue, and led thousands of employees worldwide. Her new book Jump: Dare to Do What Scares You in Business and Life is out on November 2.


Nora Ali: Hello, Business Casual listeners. We are thrilled to announce that our podcast is back. Before we get to our guest today, we should probably explain who we are. Yes, there's a “we” this time. I am Nora Ali and I'll be co-hosting the show along with the one, the only Scott Rogowsky. Hello, Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh hi, Oh, Nora. Jobs, Ohio, and a whopping welcome to the new and ever-so slightly-improved Biz Cas pod. I say slightly because you OG BC heads already know how terrific this show was, but Nora and I, along with our gleaming streaming ultra modern dream team of experienced producers and technicians have been assembled to bring you the most bodacious business content ever stuffed between your ears. We’re back in your feed, baby, satiating your audio appetite with two new episodes a week, giving you a front-row seat to conversations with the biggest leaders and deepest thinkers in business.

Nora Ali: Deep thinkers, indeed. And Scott, we're not just talking to CEOs. No. We want to explore the ways that business shapes culture, how it transforms our lives, because let's face it. Essentially everything in our lives has something to do with business. We're here to give you a central context and analysis so that you know who today's changemakers are and what is on tap for the future.

Scott Rogowsky: How about we start by tapping into ourselves, Nora, because you and I are the most talked about change makers on this day. The entire business world is buzzing about our takeover of this podcast, so why don't we introduce ourselves for the listeners who may have missed the 10,000-word cover stories and 12-page spreads about us in Forbes, BloombergFortune, and Fast Company, huh? 

Nora Ali: Sure thing, Scott. All right, I’ll start. I am a former Wall Street analyst-turned-tech and e-commerce product manager-turned-TV anchor-turned-co-founder of a media company. And now here I am as co-host of Business Casual.

Scott Rogowsky: And I am a male comedienne and Guinness World Record holder for most times fired from unpaid internships. Perhaps you remember me as the original host of HQ Trivia, or maybe, just maybe, you're hearing me for the very first time or right now as co-host of Business Casual.

Nora Ali: So now that we've introduced ourselves, allow us to introduce the all new Business Casual. Our guest today began her career in her dream job, a booming startup that unexpectedly imploded when the dot-com bubble burst, leaving her jobless and broke. She used the lessons she learned from that company's failure to launch her own company out of her kitchen, which she soon sold for millions of dollars—and then she did it again and again and again. We are talking to Kim Perell, a serial entrepreneur, angel investor, and bestselling author about the many ups and downs of her career and finding out how to make changes, take risks, and do the dang thing in your own career.

Scott Rogowsky: Kim Perell. She's not heir to the Purell fortune—spelled differently. That'd be another interesting conversation potentially, but I'm excited to talk to Kim. I want to hear about you, Nora. I wanna hear about your entrepreneurial experience, cause you're a bit of a founder yourself. Aren't you?

Nora Ali: I am a bit of a founder. I feel like I have had that spirit from the day I started in my career and it's a little bit challenging coming from a family of immigrants from Bangladesh, where they're very used to holding the same job and being stable and having one career path, and I've switched around and gone from industry to industry. And Kim's got a lot of perspective on that and it is definitely a challenge to switch your mindset from job to job. But Scott you're entrepreneurial as well. You and I do a lot of things, which I think is cool, but what are some of the things that you've learned from your own hustles, your own trajectory, which has also been circuitous in some ways?

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, well, I learned my lessons pretty early. I was first bit by the entrepreneurial--[unintelligible]. That's hard to say that word, isn't it? I was first bit by the entrepreneurial bug as an eight year old, scary little fellow, creepy crawley. 

Nora Ali: Aww. Hello, Scott. 

Scott Rogowsky: This little bug was scooting along and it just got me flamed up. It was really, it was quite, I had to go to the urgent care. It was really kind of blew up the size of a golf ball on my forearm. But when the swelling subsided, I felt this spirit inside me, the spirit of the entrepreneur, and what it drove me to do is I sold a turtle. 

Nora Ali: Wait, I'm sorry. What?

Scott Rogowsky:  I sold a turtle that I found in a pond. Yeah. 

Nora Ali: Okay. 

Scott Rogowsky: Nora, I was eight years old. I was in the Poconos on a family vacation, and I sold a turtle that I found in a pond to another kid for 10 bucks, whose mother was so mad she made him release the turtle back into the pond. And I kept the 10 bucks, pure profit, which I then sold that same kid, a box of tissues to sop up his impotent tears. And it really taught me a valuable lesson that nature's bounty can be easily extracted for financial gain with zero consequences. And ever since then, I've been selling wild animals to dopey kids.

Nora Ali: Wow. I, for one, believe in karma. So I feel like someone's going to try to sell you a turtle in your future and it's going to be like a dud turtle, like a tortoise.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. Yeah. You got to check your turtles to make sure they're not tortoises. That's, that's a very common scam in the wild animal trade.

Nora Ali: I for one have never sold turtles, but I definitely hustled my family members for money as a kid, like a six year old, they would play cards around the table, and I would ask them for their extra $1 bills, so I could sit in for them and fill in when they had to go take a break or go get a snack. And it was just free money for me. No interest, I didn't have to give back the loan. I think you and I are kind of similar in that we just like to find a way to navigate around business things and make money off it. 

Scott Rogowsky: We’re greedy little buggers, we’re greedy little buggers. I was selling comic books to my grandma for a dollar twenty-five when I was a kid. I believe Kim Perell also had a deal with her grandma that helped her get started. So there's a theme with our guests today.

Nora Ali: You and I are used to hustling. Kim Perell is used to hustling. So let's talk about her. She went from brok and unemployed, incredibly, to selling her first company and becoming a multimillionaire by age 30. That's pretty cool. Scott, she then went on to serve as CEO for multiple digital marketing tech companies. She scaled companies from zero to a billion dollars in annual sales. She sold her last company, Ambobee, for over $300 million. And she recently launched her own venture fund. She's now a prominent angel investor and is releasing her second book titled Jump: Dare to Do What Scares You in Business and Life. And that is out in November. She is joining us today to break down her wild journey for all of you.

Scott Rogowsky: A journey that doesn't involve wild animals like mine. Let's get down to business with Kim Perell. Thanks for joining us, Kim. Let's begin at the beginning of your life. You grew up in Oregon, not Oreg-awn, where your father was a real estate developer and your mother was doing...

Kim Perell: Organizational behavior and communications, which is consulting.

Scott Rogowsky: Consulting. Righ, right. A lot of fancy terminology for consulting. But I noticed in the research that you described your father as a failed entrepreneur, is that true?

Kim Perell: It depends what day it is, right? Like entrepreneurship journey. I mean he's 73 now. And he started again with some carbon neutral housing But hey, it's never too late.

Scott Rogowsky: I can relate too because my dad had a business going on in Barbados of all places and it didn't quite work out, but he put 20 years into it.

Nora Ali: I didn't even know this, Scott. What?

Scott Rogowsky: Nora, this is not about me, but he was, it was a lot of things. He was selling Jeeps and then indoor swimming pools, and then ice machines. It evolved, none of them quite worked out, but God bless him. He tried it. But I think that's part of your message, Kim. It's trying, it's attempting, you're going to fail. You're going to pick yourself up and try again. I want to hear from what formed you in those early years, seeing your parents and potentially, maybe dad tried something, didn't work, got back up again. How did those experiences shape you?

Kim Perell: Yeah, I think similar to you, you know, having seen him go through so many iterations of creation, right? From a tile factory to glow in the dark stickers, to housing, to elder care, to carbon neutral housing, to a restaurant, and then a bar. I mean, you name it. He did it. Like there's something in your DNA I think. And you could probably relate with your dad. It's just, they had this vision and then they have to just chase it.

Nora Ali: Did you realize that early on in your career? Cause I know you started at Xdrive, you were named the director of marketing pretty early on. When did you sort of realize that, “I want to be an entrepreneur,” and not necessarily work for, say, an existing company?

Kim Perell: I didn't, I wanted to get a real job because the one I had seen going up was hard. It's like hard on a family. It's hard not knowing how you're going to make ends meet. It's hard for just a variety of reasons. You know, I grew up definitely hustling and always trying to make a buck, but only because we didn't have anything. So I was just trying to, you know, get a magazine or whatever it is at the time I wanted.

Nora Ali: I think it's interesting that you use the phrase “real job,” because I feel like what people consider quote-unquote, real jobs now is so different than when any of us here started our careers. So what did that mean to you back in the day and what does that mean to you now? Where I feel like in this world of startups and VC money, a real job can kind of be anything at this point. What do you think?

Kim Perell: Yeah, I just wanted someone else. Like the security. I was looking for security more than anything else. Right? I wanted to work for a company that had a lot of cash in the bank that could pay my salary and that I had an opportunity to grow. And that was to me a real job. And it was the infancy of the internet and we all know how that ended, but like the first dot-com rise and fall was very quick and I think it was a great experience, but then it was a very quick lesson that there is no security. So I think for me, it was a very quick learning lesson. Like the best bet you can make is a bet on yourself and having seen my father and I can see why he did it. Like he was always betting on himself and whether it failed or it succeeded, he was the only person that could really, like the buck stopped with him, and he was okay with that. So I thought, all right, well that didn't work out. The real job didn't work out. So I better figure out another way, Then I jumped into entrepreneurship because I'd seen it. And I knew I'd seen the worst second happen, I guess. When my company went bankrupt and I was laid off and like in an instant, my life was deleted and I didn't know what I was going to do. It's like those times when you think, what do you really want? Like, I just want to control my own future. I wanted control. And I think that's why I took that leap. 

Scott Rogowsky: And what you really wanted was to start this Frontline Direct company. Was it marketing company essentially?

Kim Perell: Yeah. It was selling banners, you know, it's before the yellow pages ceased to exist or maybe they still do, but it was trying to convince someone not to advertise in the yellow pages, but advertise online. I got rejected nine times out of 10 on that because it was so early, but eventually people came around to internet advertising, if you can believe that.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, it's worked for a lot of people. You talk about this in your books and this is something that, again, I unfortunately can relate to. I think a lot of people listening can, because there are so many, these high flyer companies, even now, you know, you could almost argue the dot-com bubble round two is either approaching or for some it's already happened. But you know, when you have equity in a company, you were the seventh hire at Xdrive. This is this dot-com startup back in, I guess the late nineties. And you were probably feeling really good. The company's doing well. It goes bankrupt. I mean, did you really have nothing at that point? I mean, you'd banked some salary, but that equity is worthless, right?

Kim Perell: Yeah. It was basically I could wallpaper my apartment with all the stock options that were then worthless, but like literally I had nothing, you know, I was young and I just had, I believed I was going to become this internet millionaire. And everyone I knew was going to be a millionaires. We were just going to have this amazing life. And that dream became a nightmare very quickly. Honestly, when I first decided to start the company, I went and tried to raise money and people laughed at me because my track record of bankruptcy wasn’t really bankable. If you're like, we're not going to give you any money for this crazy idea that you just showed us didn’t work. So why would we do this again? This is stupidity.

Nora Ali: It’s amazing, Kim, because you've talked a lot about just having belief in yourself when other people might doubt you. You might not be the traditional person that they're used to giving money to. But I am curious, I do see a lot of maybe blind optimism from your traditional startup founder in the world. You probably know what I'm talking about, but is there some value in having a healthy dose of self-doubt and skepticism, so, you know, when to bring in other experts, you know? Maybe you went to hire other people and you know that you can't do everything by yourself. So when does that skepticism actually benefit you in some way?

Kim Perell: I really don't think anyone can do it alone. And I'm an optimist, but I'm also realist. So looking at how do you balance, like my eternal optimism with the realism of what's likely to happen? So always like what's the worst case scenario? How is that going to play out? But I also think I've been very fortunate. I've had a lot of great mentors and I'm always looking to surround myself with far smarter people than myself, because I truly believe that's how you're going to level yourself up. How do you find people that have been there done that and give you great advice, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel? 

Scott Rogowsky: Do you want to give some shout out to these mentors? Who are some of these mentors?  And finding a mentor, it could be a difficult thing for some people. So how did you approach your mentors? And let's hear about them.

Kim Perell: My first mentors, honestly, where my parents, because they're the only people I knew that actually had real-world entrepreneurial and business advice. And so I looked to them. When the company grew though, then I started looking for other mentors that had gone through similar journeys that had raised money or had sold companies, or just had been somewhere where I had not been yet. And I think you don't need to know everything. You just have to be an expert in what, you know, knowing what you know and what you don't know, and then surrounding yourself with people that can really compliment you. And I think it makes a huge difference because there's so many things you don't know. Even today. Like there's so many things I do not know. And I'm always looking for, how do I continue to compliment my own skillset?

Nora Ali: Especially if you're trying to switch jobs, switch careers, at which you talk about a lot in your book, Jump: Dare to Do What Scares You in Business and Life. So staying on the topic of mentorship, how do you figure out how to jump into a new industry and reach the right people who can help you get that new job, help put you on that new path? Because I think we're so used to making cold reach-outs now on LinkedIn or Twitter, DMs, or whatever. What advice do you have for people who are just trying to break into something new and accessing their networks and beyond to try to get there?

Kim Perell: Yeah, I think curiosity is a helpful for anyone looking. The best that you can make is, what can you do for four bucks? You can have a cup of coffee. People reach out to me all the time. Can I buy you coffee? Let's have a virtual coffee. I like that. I think it's an easy entry point. It's like 15 to 30 minutes. You can do it very quickly. I've actually had so many interesting encounters with young entrepreneurs that are looking for some mentorship. They literally reach out on a DM, say, can you just talk to me for 15 minutes about, you know, where I'm at? Or I just took a career jump. I met this new company. I just want to pick your brain on being a female within this world or whatever it is, but people will say, yes.

Scott Rogowsky: DMs are open, Kim? 

Kim Perell:  DMs are open. 

Nora Ali: Careful what you say.

Scott Rogowsky: Watch out now. You're going to get flooded with requests for mentorship after this. I want to hear about how Kim executes on her mission and vision. We're going to get into that after we take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Kim's repeated successes as a serial entrepreneur. 

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Scott Rogowsky: So twice in a row, Kim, you built and sold the company and then became the CEO of the company that purchased it. What was different about each of these companies and the way you approach them as a leader?

Kim Perell: Yeah, I think for me, I was always looking at how to grow, how to expand, so the first time I sold it was to a company based out of Europe that was headquartered in Munich. And it was such an amazing experience. You know, most people are like, why don't you just sell and just sit on the beach? Well, I started at the beach, so I didn't exactly seem enticing. So I really wanted to, I wanted to travel. I wanted to meet new people, wanted to explore new cultures. And I found that really exhilarating because you're growing all the time. And so my appreciation for learning, for people, for culture, created opportunities for me to continue to grow in my career, because I really embodied key leadership traits. So after selling, I guess it's interesting how you continue to take over as a CEO.But I think for me, it's a natural progression. I love to lead. I want to create, and I think my results speak for themselves. If you're great at what you do, there always be an opportunity to rise. 

Nora Ali: And, Kim, this reminds me of a conversation that I had with the previous manager, where I told him I am uncomfortable being comfortable. And for people like us, I think all of us on this podcast, we like to hustle. We like to always have the next thing that we're doing. We like to look forward to milestones, but I've also personally done a lot of reflecting during the pandemic of, I just want to be happy. I want to celebrate the wins. I want to be present. So Kim, how do you do that yourself? What does Kim Perell do to relax, to be happy, to not be thinking about work in a given moment?

Kim Perell: In the book I talk about it. Define success on your own terms. Maybe you want to go golfing. Well, I want to create companies like that's cool. We can both be happy doing whatever we want to do. It just depends on how you define success. And my definition of success is to really positively influence as many people as possible. So every day, wake up and think, how can I do that? How can I help the next generation? How can I help the me of 23? You know, I have four kids. How do I help ensure that like the next future little global leaders of the world, like, what does that look like? How do they make positive change? So it just depends on what drives you. And I think that's different for everyone. If you just want to like chill. That's cool. Let's chill.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. I got a hamster recently. I can hang out with him and have some bonding. Yeah. 

Kim Perell: No judging, see the thing is it’s like, to each his own, right? 

Scott Rogowsky: He sleeps all day. Our schedules don't align. Apparently hamsters are nocturnal. They didn't tell me this when I picked them up at the pet store. But anyway, I need to see another podcast for that. Kim, it's certainly a noble endeavor to inspire others to go for it. Do you ever worry, though, that maybe some of the people who read the books or who hear you speak, just aren't cut out for it. I mean, there's a great show on HBO Max I'm watching called The Other Two and there's a hilarious scene where this woman is talking to a talk show host who inspired her. She says, it's just like you. I moved to New York city to make it happen. So yeah, here I am. How do I do that? Where should I go? Where can I live? And it's like, this is like 70 year old woman who just up and leaves Minnesota and moves to New York. And now, now what? So someone might say, okay, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to go for it. And they take the jump. But what happens when they land? Is there a safety net?

Kim Perell: Yes, I truly believe that everyone should have a plan. So in the book I have a one-year success plan. I don't believe anyone's going to make a huge life-changing leap overnight. Right. And I do believe it's really good to pack your parachute before you make a big jump. I mean, my situation originally, like it was a survival jump, right? I was bankrupt. I was unemployed. I had to do something, but honestly I believe 80% of the people are just stagnant. Like they're bored, they're unfulfilled. They don't know what they want to do. And they're just stuck. And so how do we help that group of people make a change because it's scary. And there's a lot of doubt and there's the unknown and so many things. So really my goal is to how do I give you a plan and the tools to enable you to make that change? It's really asking you some of the tough questions. Like what does success mean to you?

Nora Ali: But, Kim, like, I have a lot of friends, especially in this last year-and-a-half who have said, I don't like my job. I'm just thinking about quitting. We're talking about the Great Resignation all over the media, right. So what should you have decided and what is it okay to not have decided when you're figuring out to leave a job?

Kim Perell: Yeah, I think no one's ever a hundred percent ready to do anything. Like I’m never a hundred percent ready. Like I wasn't ready to have kids or move or have a house or family. Like I'm never ready, to make a new company, to make three new companies. But I do believe that if you definitely have the financial security, you should definitely do it. There's never been a better time to your point. 95% of people are looking for jobs anyway, or looking to change what they're currently doing. So I do not believe, and I would never tell anyone that doesn't have their financial security or plan mapped out to leave their day jobs. I would say, do not quit your day job. Like everyone's got 24 hours in a day, use your eight hours for whatever your day job is. You got another eight hours for sleeping and the last eight hours, what are you doing with that time?

Like, let's explore new opportunities like this, explore passions, let's explore, I don't know, a side hustle or whatever you want to create. But I think it's really about being really thoughtful in making that jump. I'm very calculated in like the risk I take, even though they may not be perceived that way. So I think that's really important.

Scott Rogowsky: Don't quit your day job. I heard that a lot as a comedian. We're going to take another quick break right now, but when we come back, we'll dive into Kim's work, supporting budding entrepreneurs through her angel investing work.

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Scott Rogowsky: Kim, you seem like the kind of person who gets up and nothing gets you down. Some got it tough, but you've seen the toughest around. And I know just how you feel. I mean, you got to roll with the punches and get to what's real. So what is real for Kim Perell?

Kim Perell: My family's like my most important part of my life. And hence I have so many cute little kids, but it's just really about when the whole world is going crazy. And I grew up in a really supportive family and my grandma made a bet on me and I just want to be the same supporting parents for my own children. So I, I think that's number one. But then, how do I also do that for everyone else? Right. How can I be that one person that makes a bet on you and gives you the opportunity and the belief that you can do whatever that dream is you have. I was very lucky and very fortunate to grow up with such inspirational and motivational parents. And I think if I can give that back and pay that forward, it's really important to me.

Nora Ali: How do you bring that humanity and that personal connection to your angel investing journey, especially for founders who are historically excluded or overlooked, how do you make sure they feel like they're being seen as much as their counterparts who might have access beyond what they traditionally do?

Kim Perell: Yeah, for me, I mean, I invest in a lot of early stage companies and at that point they're usually pre-revenue, right. They basically have themselves and a vision. And so it's really, for me, just identifying the people that I believe have the ability to execute and that are willing to do whatever it takes in order to be successful because entrepreneurship is so hard. I think that there's just no substitute for how hard it is and when the going gets tough, are you going to be resilient? And are you going to continue to push forward despite everything else that's happening? And I think that's what makes truly great entrepreneurs and like the essence and the core of individuals that I invest in.

Scott Rogowsky: And as you've begun to pursue angel investing more seriously, you've also recently launched another new company, 100.co. Can you tell us about that?

Kim Perell: So I have a separate fund and I've invested just personally in early stage companies, early stage entrepreneurs, 100.co is a new company I founded last year, which is specifically focused on using artificial intelligence to create brands. So that's my new venture, but I have a lot of, a lot of things going on. All of them focus honestly on entrepreneurship and taking that first jump and knowing what the plan is and how do I help support the 23 year old me, I think. At whatever age, you know, my dad at 73, like how can I help support that journey?

Nora Ali: Using AI to understand trends Scott is going to roll his eyes because I bring up TikTok pretty much every time we talk. But when you think about AI, that understands consumers really well, I think of the, “For You” page on TikTok, where it knows what I want before I know I want it. So, Kim, what is your view on social platforms, ability to now be really, really good, kind of creepily good at targeting. And do you think TikTok is in its own camp and its own level compared to other social platforms from your expert marketing perspective?

Kim Perell: I think TikTok has done an incredible job, and I definitely think to your point, they know what you want before you know what you want, depending on privacy laws, etcetera. We'll see how that shakes out. But you know, all social media platforms have an algorithm and they're all using artificial intelligence to serve the best ad tailored to your preferences and behaviors.

Nora Ali: Should we be worried though? Do they know too much? 

Kim Perell: Yes. Everyone should be worried. Yeah, definitely worry.

Scott Rogowsky: Working. The profits supersede the worry though, is that at the end of the day.

Kim Perell: Let's use for good, not evil. Right?

Scott Rogowsky: I don't know, Kim. You look like you could be a Bond villain in one of these new reboots, you know, I think it's time we break the glass ceiling of Bond villains. We need more women.

Kim Perell: I love it. Yes. 

Scott Rogowsky: Right. More female villains,

Kim Perell: More female heroes too. I like it. More females everywhere. Sounds good to me.

Scott Rogowsky: More females. You know, to bring this conversation full circle, Kim, you had your own mentors coming up now that you've made it. What experiences are you taking from your journey coming up as an entrepreneur and passing onto your mentees, the next generation? 

Kim Perell: Yeah, I think for me, having a lot of companies I've invested in, I think that pandemic was really hard on a lot. And so I saw a lot of great founders come for advice in terms of what do I do? I'm running out of capital or I've got to change my business. I got to pivot my business and I think that's where I can add a lot of value because I've been operating companies for 20 years. And when your original vision given macroeconomic circumstances may change and having the courage to change with it, or in some cases, having the courage to say it didn't work and call it a day and move on. And I think just I'm able to give a lot of great expertise, given my experience in a lot of different areas, which I think helps because it's nice to know, you know, one company ends up shutting its doors and I'm like, listen, this is not, you know, a failure, it’s a stepping stone to success, Scott, you learned, you’ve grown. It's okay. Investors are smart. They know it's an investment, like there's risks. But at some point you have to just admit it to yourself and make that change. Another company, honestly, they pivoted their business and then they were able to come out the other side and raise $10 million by the end of the same year. So I think it just depends. And my hope is that I'm able to add some really good advice to entrepreneurs.

Nora Ali: For the entrepreneurs that you mentor, I imagine if failure and rejection comes up a lot, then alongside that comes imposter syndrome, or you might feel like you're not equipped to take this next leap or jump or this next career pivot. You write and talk a lot about imposter syndrome. So if you find yourself in an environment that maybe isn't set up for your success, or you are trying to break into an industry where you are not the typical person historically that you might've seen in that space, what advice do you have? How do you combat that? When the systems around you maybe don't support you in the way that you would hope they do?

Kim Perell: I think it's been interesting because I've been in technology and a woman tech, there's not that many, so I think you have to be competent, number one, in your own unique abilities. Again, you're not going to know everything, but what you do know, you should be very confident in that. And I think, too, I actually tell people to make their own highlight reel when all those doubts creep in, remind yourself of your accomplishments, like your own personal movie trailer of, “I've done this. I was able to overcome this. I bounce back from this.” Was about your own journey. And if you can really reflect really quickly on some of those successes, you start to build that confidence in yourself that you can do it again. And I think that's really important.

Scott Rogowsky: You need to hire Don LaFontaine, a blessed memory. You have to get one of those, baritone-voiced movie trailer guys to narrate your sizzle reel. In a world where you are the CEO of your own life, this is the most important job you will ever have. Take charge.

Kim Perell: I love it. Yes, that's so true. So make the decisions accordingly. You know, I think the biggest lie people tell themselves is you can't change or you can't make a choice. Or I can't jump. And like, that's just a lie. You have to make the decision to jump and be okay with the sacrifices you're gonna have to make in order to do it because you're gonna have to give up something in order to get something. And people usually don't want to make that sacrifice.

Scott Rogowsky: You know, I think I just got inspired to jump into a new career, Kim, because I'm looking on Wikipedia here at Don LaFontaine, he did 5,000 films and shows. He passed away in 2008. Hal Douglasm another superstar of movie trailer narration, he died in 2014. There is a gap. There is a white space, void. How's that? I got to work on it.

Nora Ali: That's pretty good. That's pretty good, Scott. Well, like reminding yourself of the great things you've done, your successes. I think that's awesome. There's a new trend of manifesting and reciting manifestations every morning saying, you know, I do not chase. What is due to me will find me and kind of letting the universe guide your path. What do you think about manifestations, Kim? Do you think it's real or is it hot, garbage?

Kim Perell: I like to believe that the universe will deliver, but then I'm going to have to go make it happen. You’ve got to put that in action. So just sitting around, waiting for something to happen is ridiculous. There's no elevator to success. You gotta take the stairs. So we better go, right? 

Nora Ali: Mhm. I agree.

Kim Perell: To your point, Nora, mindset is the number one blocking obstacle to most people's success. So if you can do some of these personal mantras or belief to just remind yourself that you have the opportunity you are good enough.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And gosh, darn it, people like me.

Kim Perell: And you know, I like you, Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: Thank you. Thank you. That's that's really why we started this podcast to get people to validate my existence.

Nora Ali: Just one last question, based on what we were just talking about, you know, Scott, getting people to like him. it is something you write about. I know in your book, Jump, is don't care what people think about you. So how do you balance that? Let let's just say Scott and myself, for example, we're like out there we're hosts. We kind of need people to like us, for people to tune into us. So how do you balance that if maybe it's part of your job versus knowing when to let go, don't care what the trolls say? How do you balance that out?

Kim Perell: I mean, it's hard, right? But the naysayers, the critics, those people will never help you get to where you want to be. So I'm really big on just auditing them out. And it sounds quite simple, but I really tell people in the book on the mouth, I don't know how you're going to audit out the trolls, but maybe block them, but come on. It's like, you want to be surrounded by like-minded people that believe in you, support you, inspire you, challenge you, encourage you, and all the critics and the naysayers, they are just self-imposing their own feelings on to you. It's not even how you feel, it’s how they feel. They don't think they could do it. So I just think that's noise. And my personal opinion is it's time to eliminate them.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah, nay is for horses nay is for horses, go say your names elsewhere, back to the stables with these naysayers.

Nora Ali: Send the trolls to the stable. 

Kim Perell: Send them back. It's like, why, why so mean? I don't know, like life's hard enough, you know? 

Scott Rogowsky: It is hard enough. Exactly. We're making it easier talking to you, Kim, and getting your message out there and hopefully inspiring others. Kim Perell is an entrepreneur, angel investor, and author. Her new book Jump: Dare to Do What Scares You in Business and Life will hit shelves November 2nd. Kim, thanks so much for joining us on Business Casual, and I hope David Lee Roth accompanies you on your book tour.

Kim Perell: Thanks, you guys. It's been a pleasure.

Scott Rogowsky: And now, BC listeners, we want to hear from you. Tell us about your experience in the entrepreneurship space. What are the biggest challenges you're facing? What have you learned from your failures? Why are you such a failure? Send us an email ar businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Z-casual-pod with your stories.

Nora Ali: You can also leave a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring. Leave us an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 8 6 2 2 9 5 1 1 3 5 that's 8 6 2 2 9 5 1 1 3 5. As Business Casual grows, we are so excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is produced and executed by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins, additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Marcus. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio at Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of Multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Marcus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear candy. And we love it, we truly love it, if you would give us a great rating and a review, no fewer than five stars. No more than 12.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. 

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.