Feb. 10, 2022

How to Fix the Childcare Business

Is this working for anyone?

Nora and Scott sit down with Bloomberg senior writer Claire Suddath who explains why childcare in the U.S. is the "rare example of an almost entirely private market in which the service offered is too expensive for both consumers and the businesses that provide it." Her investigation for Bloomberg Businessweek is called "How Child Care Became the Most Broken Business in America.”

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky
Producer: Bella Hutchins
Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus
Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder
Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop
Director of Audio: Alan Haburchak
VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer

Full episode transcript below.


Claire Suddath: When she interviews people for jobs, she's pretty upfront about how little money they're going to make, and she says that whenever she interviews someone and she's like, if you're debating between taking this job and working at Starbucks and being a barista, she's like, go be a barista. It's the same amount of money and it's easier. And so the people who end up taking the job are the people who really do care.

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now let's get down to business. Nora, you have 18 kids, is that right?

Nora Ali: Yes.

Scott Rogowsky: At last check?

Nora Ali: 18 and counting. No, it's information like this that we've learned from our guest, Claire, that makes it really challenging to even think about having children, raising children in this country.

Scott Rogowsky: Having one.

Nora Ali: Having one.

Scott Rogowsky: Let alone a dozen and a half, but we have nieces and nephews, right? You and I, we're not totally immune. And we have friends with kids. We know what's going on. My sister happens to live in Scotland and she has had two babies over the last few years. She's gotten one year of paid maternity for each of those babies. Her husband gets six months, I believe, paid leave and they are very happy. Their kids are happy and they actually get paid, I think, to support the child. There's like, a monthly check's coming in for diapers and childcare. It's absolutely... It is so much better than what we have here in America. And not to mention... Look, there's the cost of childcare when it comes to the actual financial cost, but then there's the time cost. And as Claire tells us, a lot of middle-class parents are now, in the wake of the pandemic, realizing how difficult it is to raise children without the help of nannies or assistance and they're really struggling to get their kids care. How do you feel about all this, Nora?

Nora Ali: I've been talking about this a lot with my little sister who just had a baby a few weeks ago, and she has a co-worker who's in their company's Canada office who went on maternity leave before my sister got pregnant and was still on maternity leave during my sister's whole pregnancy. My sister's currently on her maternity leave and her Canadian co-worker is still going to be on maternity leave when my sister has to go back to work. And my sister is covering for this woman because they're on the same team. And it just, it's such a stark contrast to your point about Scotland, other countries that are just figuring this out better than the U.S. So let's get into our conversation. Today we're digging into the business of childcare in the United States with a Bloomberg Businessweek senior writer, Claire Suddath, and her investigation titled "How Child Care Became The Most Broken Business in America." And she details the harsh economic realities that parents and childcare providers face in an almost entirely private market that doesn't appear to be working for anyone. So here's our conversation with Claire Suddath. Claire, thanks so much for joining us today.

Claire Suddath: Well thank you for having me and thank you for caring, without having kids, because I think that has been one of the problems in the past is this has been going on for so long, but unless you were in the thick of it, you didn't really understand what the problem was. Scott Rogowsky: So, Claire, we're talking about the business of childcare and specifically about this great piece you wrote for Bloomberg about how child care doesn't work like a normal business. That's something you state early on in your piece. Can you explain how it does work?

Claire Suddath: That's what led me to write about this in the first place, because I think a lot of people have heard over the years, child care is so expensive, but the people who work in that industry aren't making money. So I thought, well, if people are paying so much into the industry and into these businesses, and yet nothing is really coming out on the back end, what is going on? And the reason why it's different than other businesses is that, while in the U.S. it's not really subsidized in any meaningful way, which we can get into later, it's heavily, heavily, heavily regulated, as it should be. No one that I talked to for this article said why regulate the safety of children. So most of the regulations that are put in place are very simple, square footage requirements, fire safety codes, CPR training courses, all this stuff. And the main one that makes it so expensive is it's usually called the child-to-staff ratio, which just says how many caregivers you have to have per child. So for older children, usually ages two to four, which is funny thinking that they're old, but it's usually five to eight or something like that, children for a caregiver. But for infants, it's usually one caregiver for every three to four babies, and that just makes it incredibly expensive. Because if you think about these other high labor intensive jobs... If you go to a restaurant, an actual person comes to your table, they serve you personally, but they're not serving three people and that's it across their entire shift. So it's just so many employees that are required, considering how many children they're actually taking care of. And there's really no way to make that economically feasible for parents. They're paying currently right now, in most U.S. states, it costs more to put a baby in child care than it does to pay in-state college tuition. So parents are already paying about as much as is possible, and even at that level, a ton of people are still priced out and can't afford that. But the wages that are able to be provided for in a private market are so low because you are having to hire all these people. So it's broken on both ends. And it's so bad that the U.S. Treasury has started studying this because they similarly were like, what is the problem? So that's the situation we were in, even going into COVID, that's just the general state of things in the U.S.

Nora Ali: And you've called it a true market failure, in a sense, because on the demand side it's way too expensive, and then on the supply side, it's just almost unprofitable. So I want to get into the story that you wrote on this specifically. You profiled a woman named Deanna Cohen, who's a former music industry executive who, after having her second child, decided to open her own child care business in Portland. Why did you want to highlight her story? How is Deanna's situation emblematic of the crisis at hand?

Claire Suddath: Well, so I talked to a dozen or so child care business owners, the providers who start these businesses, and I want to say this is an industry that is almost all small businesses, almost entirely run by women and staffed by women. And when I would talk to them over and over and over again, these women were themselves priced out of child care. And I found that really fascinating because this is a problem that is so pervasive. The easier solution is to just start their own business rather than trying to afford their own childcare. And it's usually people who have a background in early education. So Deanna made it all the way for 20 years in the music industry. She was the vice president of a national TV network. She was making good money. She was married. Her husband had a good job. But when they had two kids... So if you're paying $20,000 a year for child care per kid, she was looking at, I think, probably about $45,000 worth of care. That's just such a huge chunk of your take home pay. At a certain point she just thought this is ridiculous. And so she had a background in childhood development and education and loved working with kids and so she opened this small preschool that, when she first started, I think it was 2009, it was just in her home and she just cared for a few kids, and she has since expanded and has three locations. And I picked her because she had had what you would call a successful career traditionally. She had worked up and yet still found it this hard. And also in some ways she's a success in child care. Her business has grown over the years. She's doing well. She even expanded in the pandemic. And yet she was very open with me about how hard it is to make money. And she kept saying to me... I know that I'm lucky and that I am doing this, but I never thought it was going to be this hard.

Scott Rogowsky: All the regulations you mentioned, there's the square footage and these codes and certifications you have to have, so when all is said and done you factor... add up all the costs, what are the profit margins for these childcare centers? They must be very slim.

Claire Suddath: The U.S. Treasury looked at this recently and they said that it was a 1% profit margin and this is unrelated to COVID.

Nora Ali: Barely functioning.

Claire Suddath: Barely, barely.

Scott Rogowsky: So after all that, what's even the point?

Claire Suddath: People do it because they feel very driven, which is just such a weird thing to say, because you can't run a business based on passion. People talk about it a lot in marketing... "Do what you love" and all that sort of stuff, but if you're not making any money, you can't really make it work. And yet for so long, that's what these people have been doing.

Scott Rogowsky: And Deanna's had an unusual path to working in child care, right? What is the typical demographic of child care workers in the U.S?

Claire Suddath: I think 95% of child care workers in general are women. 40% of those are women of color. Many of them are new to this country and maybe English is not their first language. But that said, a lot of them have backgrounds in childhood education. Many of them, especially when you get to the preschool level, have some formal education in child development. I'm writing this now because I have a daughter and she's a year and a half and we're starting to look at preschools and I can't tell you how many preschools are like well, all of our teachers have master's degrees and I'm like, how is this possible, because I know what they make?

Nora Ali: Right.

Scott Rogowsky: Right.

Claire Suddath: So it's a weirdly, like it's a seemingly conflicting set of facts of people who are historically disempowered, and yet at the same time are really good at this and are good at what they're doing. And in order to last in this profession, you have to be really passionate about taking care of kids because one of the things Deanna told me in the article is, when she interviews people for jobs, she's pretty upfront about how little money they're going to make. And she says that whenever she interviews someone, and she's like, if you're debating between taking this job and working at Starbucks and being a barista, she's like, go be a barista. It's the same amount of money and it's easier. And so the people who end up taking the job are the people who really do care.

Nora Ali: Well, we'll get into why we haven't been able to address this as a country thus far in a moment. But for now, we'll take a very quick break, more with Claire when we come back. So Claire, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said recently that the free market works well in many different sectors, but it seems like child care is not one of them. Why do you think the federal government hasn't been able to solve this issue of child care?

Claire Suddath: I think that is a great question and it is one that I just like, it's a personal nit that I'm going to keep picking until I find out the right answer and I don't know all of it, but I will say that it's these conflicting ideologies in Washington. I think the best example of this is... So in 1971 the Congress passed this child development act that, if it had been signed by President Nixon, it would have created a system of federally funded child care centers. It wouldn't be government buildings, the government is running them. It would've been government money going to local places and institutions who are running it themselves. But he vetoed it. And when he vetoed it, he said that he didn't think it was the government's place to raise children, that it should be the family, which obviously, especially in 1971, men were working, so that mostly just means women. And this isn't in the article, but I have since done a bunch of research, just trying to figure out like, well, OK, but if Congress passed it, you can override a veto or you could try to pass it again. And so they did. They reworked the bill. They gave it less money and it was going to be a bit weaker, but they tried to pass it again and it basically got nowhere. And by that point there was this solid conservative push against what they were calling the Sovietization of childcare. There's a lot of references to the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union had funded child care so we definitely don't want to be them. We want it to be the right of every family to decide how they want to care for their own children. But that's not a good enough answer. And also that was 1975. I wasn't even alive. So this is a very long time ago and we still have not addressed it since then. That was the best we did that long ago. There have been some other bills put forth in Congress. Elizabeth Warren has pushed for this and it just... it never quite goes anywhere.

Scott Rogowsky: Like so many topics we cover on this podcast, I sense a undercurrent of class and race in this issue of child care and the politicians who are making these decisions and the thinkers who are the policy makers, all these... They all are well off enough where they can afford probably live-in nannies, or some robust child care for their own children, and they're not thinking about the millions and millions and millions of mothers who are working three jobs and still trying to care for their kids.

Claire Suddath: Well, I want to say a few things on that. I think that's a really good point. And I also think that conservative line of reasoning is very hypercritical. In the nineties, when we reformed welfare, there was a big push to get "welfare moms back to work". But guess what? They needed child care in order to do that. And the funding for child care wasn't sufficient. So if we value women staying at home, when they have small children, we don't have paid leave. So if you have a job, many people in America don't have access to paid parental leave. But if you're also saying... But if you're poor, you really need to work, but we don't have child care available for you. Every state has a low-income subsidy program, but they're so underfunded that even only 14% of people who even qualify, like are poor enough to qualify in their state for these subsidies, actually get any money. So everyone else doesn't have access to this. And so there has been this unspoken hypocrisy and I would say very... It's oftentimes racist, because in the 1980s and nineties, when people would talk about welfare moms, they were mostly talking about Black mothers. And the idea that you think that the government shouldn't take care of kids because women should stay home, what you're really talking about is white middle class women. And I have to say, stuff has gotten so expensive that even white middle class women can't afford it. I have interviewed so many people in that demographic over the years who also quit their jobs, who are teachers, and they only make $60,000 a year. But if you have the two kids and $45,000 of childcare costs, you stop being a teacher and childcare costs have risen exponentially that we're now kicking so many women out of the workforce and then making it impossible for the women who can't financially leave the workforce to have any reliable form of childcare. Because the reality is, if you don't have any money, child care does exist for you, but it's not licensed. So that means that all of those safety precautions put in place for kids, those don't exist. And maybe you get lucky and you find a lovely place that is within your budget. But I have talked to so many women who have told me these horror stories about the best that they could do was find some woman off of Craigslist who would watch kids out of her house for $100 a week and then... Surprise! She ended up hitting the kids. So that's not good. And so we're really just putting families, mothers, and children at a disadvantage when we are not supporting them in the way that other countries do. Other countries subsidize this.

Nora Ali: Well, and obviously the pandemic grossly exacerbating all of this and highlighting the government's decision to allocate funds, to allocate stimulus that maybe isn't to the benefit of these caretakers. You reported a statistic specifically related to the CARES Act. That's of course the over $2 trillion economic stimulus bill signed into law during the pandemic. You wrote, "One out of every 55 working women in the U.S. works in child care or early education yet the Cares Act gave more to Delta Air Lines than to all of those women combined." That's very upsetting. So it seems overall that the U.S. has done a suboptimal job, but to your point, other countries have done a better job on this in terms of federal aid or other help for these caretakers. So who has done a good job? I know you referenced France and Germany, but what other countries have nailed this better than the U.S.?

Claire Suddath: I think France is the one that everyone talks about whenever they talk about this, because I would say it seems like a very well-thought out system that dates back, I think, back to 1844. For children who are younger than preschool age, there's this creche system, which is basically like a nursery system. And let's say you live in Paris and you have an infant. First of all you get paid leave in France. So I think the minimum is maybe four months, four to six months. But when your child is four to six months, you can enroll them in this creche, which is a daycare, essentially. And it is funded by the French government with fees on a sliding scale. So if you are wealthy or middle class, you will pay something. But if you're below a certain point, it will be free. And they have... There's a physician that comes once a month to check on all the kids and everything, so health care is also included. And it's not perfect. I've talked to women who live in France and there are more children than there are spots available in creches, so there are also private daycares as well, but you can also get tax breaks on that. And so I talked to one woman who makes very good money and is married, so is in a dual-income household, and she still only pays, in Paris, a couple hundred dollars. I think it was $400 a month for childcare. And I was like, I live in New York City and we pay almost $2,000. And then when they get to preschool age, preschool is also free and so they continue on in the preschool program and public school and so on and so forth. Many European countries have adopted a model somewhat based on that. And I think Canada is probably closer to the U.S. because while Quebec has a similar federally, like a subsidized program, nationally Canada does not. And so there're different parts of Canada where child care is really expensive and then different parts where it isn't. But because of COVID, the country has entered a similar conversation that the U.S. is going through saying... Oh, maybe we should do what Montreal is doing. I don't really know where they are politically on that right now. I don't think it has happened, but even so, guess what, Canada also has paid leave. So all of this isn't a problem for you immediately upon giving birth to a child in Canada. I think they've expanded it recently and I think you can take up to a year off, whereas in the U.S. all of these problems hit you, maybe if you're one of the people without leave, six weeks after giving birth. So that makes it even harder.

Scott Rogowsky: Claire, we're all familiar with this Build Back Better Act. There is a $390 billion plan in the act that's supposed to provide free preschool for every kid in America. That bill of course is stalling in Congress. But what is significant about this bill, in particular, in the context of U.S. political history? Is this just another feckless attempt to right the ship, or if it succeeds, could this really create an entirely new childcare system?

Claire Suddath: So when that story came out in November, Build Back Better was already a little bit delayed, but there was general consensus that something was going to get passed. And so the fear was less that we wouldn't have a new child care program at all, it would be... What is it and how much money is it? Because the reason why this hasn't meaningfully been solved is because it's expensive. There's millions and millions of families and millions and millions of children. And so even though any one kid is not nearly as expensive as running an airline or something like that, just the sheer magnitude of the problem is what is expensive for the government. Since then I think it has become pretty clear to people that certainly paid leave is off the table, and the bill is stalled long enough that child care is still in it and universal preschool is still in it and they're probably not going to take it out, but they may just not pass it at all. So I'll tell you what's in it, but I don't know if it'll really matter. So the way that the Build Back Better Act is structured is that it's just a chunk of money available for states to buy into the program. So the government is saying... We'll give you all of this money if you create your own plan for fixing child care in your state. And if you take a state like California or New York, that state's probably going to say... Sounds great. We're going to come up with a plan. It has to hit all of these parameters. It has to cap costs at no more than 7% of a family's income, given certain parameters, and has to provide a living wage to the workers and all this stuff. But a state has to buy into it. And there are still, I think, 12 states in this country, that under the Affordable Care Act, didn't expand their Medicaid programs. So my guess is that you may have some more conservative-leaning states that would not buy into this at all. But the problem with that is the way that Build Back Better is structured is they could create universal preschool programs because almost every state likes the idea of helping three year olds go to preschool. And when you pull those three year olds out of daycares, daycares lose money, because the only way they can bulk up that child-to-staff ratio that we talked about earlier, is if they have the older kids, because they have more lax child-to-staff ratios. And so when you pull all of those kids out and only create preschool, that might actually make child care worse. New York City actually inadvertently did this when they created universal Pre-K for four year olds in 2014. They lost 2,700 infant spots in poor neighborhoods because they didn't understand how precarious these business models are, that if you just undo one part of it, the whole thing collapses.

Nora Ali: We're going to take another quick break with Claire. More when we come back. Claire, you started to address this preschool situation, which I'm so interested in because it seems preschool just hasn't been as polarizing as daycare, and then when you do have these systems at a preschool, to your point, that disrupts in many ways the business of child care. So why is that? Why is preschool a bit more widely accepted and aid on that front?

Claire Suddath: I think... We were talking before about the idealized notions of motherhood. If you picture a mom and a six-month-old baby, and you say you think it's valuable for women to stay at home to care for the baby, the logistics and the economics of that aside, I think people understand that. But when you make that argument for three and four year olds, there's quite robust, both economic literature and scientific literature about cognitive development, social skills, that have pointed for decades that this early childhood education is really important for three, four, and five year olds. That's even why there's Head Start, which is preschool for low income children that has been around since 1965. And they started it because they understood that three year olds, regardless of how much money their family has, really benefit from this early education. But because it hasn't really been funded properly, in America it's 40% of preschool aged children actually go to preschool, which I thought was... It's crazy low. And other countries, most other wealthy nations that you can think of... Canada, Germany, France, South Korea, Japan, it's 90%. So we're lagging quite far behind.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm thinking more about this, Claire, as we're talking, and because we're such a capitalistic society, we're so driven by ROI, right, and it comes down to you don't see an immediate, tangible return on child care. So do you have any solutions on how to get politicians, how to get all of us, rallied around this way?

Claire Suddath: That's why I do the interviews. I will talk about this to anyone who wants to ask, because it would take a huge shift in society and the way that we do things. And I am not personally all that hopeful because I think there have been a number of things that we as a country have tried to address in recent years that we have yet to successfully change. The first big story that I wrote about it is going to be seven years old this year. And if you went back and tweaked some of the numbers and changed the number of states who had their own plan, you could just republish it today.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, there's a lot of anxiety and depression, sadness, that's coming to me right now when I think about this, but let's try to bring some levity to our lives right now. So it's time for Quizness Casual, the Business Casual Quiz. So, Claire, the Quizness Casual today is all about child rearing, in honor of you and our conversation, and Nora is going to be your co-contestant. The two of you are working together collaboratively to answer these questions. It could be tricky. Even someone who knows as much about these topics as you do, might not know the title of certain parenting advice books which...

Claire Suddath: I am a parent, but I'm definitely not an expert in parenting.

Scott Rogowsky: Right. So this could be tough.

Nora Ali: I'm an aunt. That's my contribution. I have nieces.

Scott Rogowsky: Everyone's a winner on Quizness Casual, but in a more accurate way, we'll see who gets these questions right or wrong. All right. Qumero numero uno: Which of the following is not the title of a parenting advice book that's currently in print? Not the title. So three of these are, one is not. Bringing up Bebe, spelled B-E-B-E with the accente gu, I think? Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, Dr. Strange Mom, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Motherhood, or Achtung Baby?

Nora Ali: I love the third option. Dr. Strange and the what?

Scott Rogowsky: Dr. Strange Mom.

Claire Suddath: I love that. I hope that's a book.

Scott Rogowsky: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Motherhood.

Claire Suddath: I'm going to go with that too, because I have heard of the first two. I have not read them, but I know that they exist.

Nora Ali: I've only heard of the second one, The Battle...

Claire Suddath: I feel like I may have seen the fourth one. I'm going to go with number three.

Nora Ali: Let's let's lock it in. Dr. Strange Mom and I appreciate...

Scott Rogowsky: Locking in Dr. Strange Mom.

Nora Ali: I appreciate the name though.

Scott Rogowsky: It's a great name. Great play on Dr. Strangelove. And you are correct. That is not the title of the parenting advice book. Achtung Baby, yes, a U2 album, but also that is a book. Number two, what is the name of the American pediatrician who became one of the most renowned parenting experts and bestselling authors of parenting advice books in the 20th century? Dr. Phil McGraw, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Dr. Joy Brown, or Dr. Frasier Crane?

Claire Suddath: Well, I would've loved to pick Frasier. It's Benjamin Spock.

Nora Ali: She knows. I don't even have to try. All right.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes. That's been the most confident answer we've had from any guest.

Nora Ali: Literally ever, yes.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes. So quickly you got it. And you got it right, of course, Claire, Dr. Benjamin Spock was pediatrician's books like Common Sense Book of Baby and Childcare published in 1946 influenced generations of parents who made his name a household word. Final question. You're two for two. This could be the best performance yet on Quizness Casual. Here we go. Q3... In 1944 the word "teenage" was introduced to American culture by what or by whom? Was it a Coca-Cola ad campaign, a Chevrolet ad campaign, a scene from the 1944 film National Velvet, starring Elizabeth Taylor, or an article in LIFE magazine?

Nora Ali: I feel like I've heard that this was a marketing thing by some corporation. So I feel like it's Coca-Cola maybe, I don't know. Do you know Claire?

Claire Suddath: I think it's LIFE magazine.

Nora Ali: She just knows everything.

Scott Rogowsky: And Nora defers to Claire on this one?

Nora Ali: Of course I defer to Claire.

Scott Rogowsky: Of course.

Claire Suddath: I'm less confident about this, but I thought... In my head, I was... I think it was out of a magazine first.

Scott Rogowsky: We need to cue the confetti machines, the bottle poppers. We got a winner. Three for three. Claire, LIFE magazine. To quote LIFE in 1944, "There is a time in the life of every American girl when the most important thing in the world is to be one of a crowd of other girls and to act and speak and dress exactly as they do. This is the teenager."

Nora Ali: Wow.

Claire Suddath: That's it. The first mention of teenage in print, 1944 LIFE magazine. Claire Suddath, three for three. This is just the most impressive display we've ever seen here. Congratulations.

Nora Ali: And she's so casual about it too. No big deal.

Scott Rogowsky: I know.

Claire Suddath: I feel very good about this.

Nora Ali: I'd be freaking out.

Scott Rogowsky: We'll send you a cookie cake.

Claire Suddath: I'm going to put this on my resume in LinkedIn.

Scott Rogowsky: This should be. This absolutely should be. But no, listen, more important than the quiz, of course, is your coverage, and keep up the fantastic work in that regard. You're right. We just have to keep spreading the word, letting people know what a crisis this is, and hopefully someone important will be listening and could do something about it.

Nora Ali: Claire. Thanks again for joining us.

Claire Suddath: All right. Thank you, guys.

Scott Rogowsky: Thank you, Claire. We love hearing from you, BC listeners, so please hit us up. We're working on an upcoming episode about the regulation of the cannabis industry, and we love to hear your thoughts, man. Do you work in the cannabis industry? How has regulation impacted the unregulated market? Send us an email at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter at bizcasualpod, that's B-I-Z casual pod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is reared by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio Morning Brew. Sarah Singer's our VP of multimedia. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you go for your podcast. And we love it if you give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.