March 3, 2022

How Revel is Changing the Rideshare Game

What’s it gonna take to go electric?

Nora and Scott are talking about the world of EVs. We’ll find out about sourcing materials that make a key component of EVs—batteries—and how the lithium shortage could affect the EV market with Emerging Tech Brew reporter Grace Donnelly. Then, Frank Reig, co-founder and CEO of Revel reveals how the company plans to electrify transportation through EV charging hubs, mopeds, e-bikes, and Tesla ride-sharing services.

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky
Producer: Bella Hutchins
Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus
Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder
Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop
Director of Audio: Alan Haburchak
VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer

Full transcript for this episode below.


Nora Ali: Scott, I hear you have been on a Revel before.

Scott Rogowsky: Revel, Revel.

Nora Ali: An electric moped.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Is that their theme song?

Scott Rogowsky: It should be if they can license it from David Bowie's estate.

Nora Ali: Was it fun?

Scott Rogowsky: It was cool when I was living in New York. It was fun. My buddy, James, I think suggested it. We just went for a little joyride on this thing. Oh, you know what it was? My maiden voyage on a moped was in Lisbon, Portugal, with the same guy, James, we were working together right there. So it was like a reunion on the moped. It was fun. But I got a car here. I have an electric car in LA, so I definitely have EV experience, and I love the darn thing. A little bit of range anxiety when I'm in the mountains.

Nora Ali: But you feel good about what you're doing for the environment with the electric [crosstalk].

Scott Rogowsky: Definitely feel good about that. I feel even better when I see gas prices creep up to $6 a gallon. What can I say? It's going to pay for itself eventually. Not yet.

Nora Ali: Yeah. Not yet. Well, I've loved that you first discovered mopeds in Europe, as did I. That was also part of the inspiration for the founding of Revel. So that's something that we got into in this conversation. We are talking with Morning Brew's emerging tech reporter, Grace Donnelly. We're going to find out about sourcing materials that make a key component of electric vehicles, batteries, and how the impending lithium shortage could affect the EV market. And then I'm going to be talking to Frank Reig, who is the co-founder and CEO of Revel, a company that is aiming to electrify cities transportation through EV charging hubs, mopeds, e-bikes, and all electric Tesla-powered rideshare. For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual. The podcast reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now, let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: We love Morning Brew collabs with our reporters, our friends. Grace, you've done some deep reporting on the batteries that power electric vehicles. So, let's start with what is contributing to the demand for electric vehicle batteries. As you stated in your reporting, by the year 2030, more than 27 million electric vehicles are expected to be on the roads. Electric vehicle purchases could make up 20 to 30 percent of all vehicle sales. So what exactly is driving this demand? How does competition among automakers contribute to this skyrocketing demand?

Grace Donnelly: Transportation is such a big contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. And so in trying to address climate change, we're trying to electrify transportation. So you have both the federal government in the US saying, now with the Biden administration, that they want to aim for 50% of all new passenger vehicle sales to be electric by 2030. You also have automakers who are recognizing that this is the direction things are going in and are making really, really big investments to try and own that EV market.

Scott Rogowsky: How much is the government's role playing in this? I know there was a lot of promise coming into the Biden administration, especially in the campaign. This is going to be a green administration. There's going to be a major push to reduce climate damage. Part of that is a definite push to the consumer side to companies to go electric. What is their role right now?

Grace Donnelly: Yeah. So I think some of it is happening and some of it remains to be seen. There's some provisions in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill that's already been signed into law that relate to electric vehicles. There's $7.5 billion in funding for charging infrastructure. So that will roll out and create new charging stations that will help address that range anxiety that a lot of folks have when they're thinking about switching to an electric vehicle, but some of the other climate provisions were really tied up in the Build Back Better Bill. And so the fate of that is still up in the air. And so there's a lot more that could come, but I think there are some steps in leadership that you're seeing from this administration, where they're talking about electrifying public fleets, the USPS vehicles, and then trying to lead by example in getting more electric vehicles into their fleets.

Nora Ali: A lot of these plans on investments, to your point, are tied up in political debates and negotiations. And that contributes to the US maybe being a little bit behind compared to other regions. Asia, for example, is leading in battery production, just three companies making up almost 70% of the EV battery manufacturing market. From your reporting, what have you found has contributed to Asia's dominance in the space over the US?

Grace Donnelly: They've been working on the battery supply chain in Asia, building that up and the infrastructure for manufacturing over the last 10, 15 years. I mean, even going back to the 1990s, there was a need to build batteries for consumer electronics, for digital cameras, for everything, since then smartphones. And so they've been able to scale the processes for raw materials for manufacturing. At this point, they're just way out ahead of anybody else in producing EV batteries. I mean, about almost three quarters of all EV batteries are manufactured in China at this point.

Scott Rogowsky: Where does the US fit into that? I know a lot of American manufacturers are working with those major players in the industry, in Asia, but are there homegrown talents here that are working on battery production?

Grace Donnelly: The US is way behind in battery production capacity. Most of the large auto manufacturers who are trying to build battery factories, they're choosing to team up with companies like LG, with SK Innovation, these Asian companies, and using their expertise in joint ventures, mostly to create battery production capacity here in the US.

Nora Ali: Just taking a step back for those who aren't that familiar with what kinds of batteries and what kinds of materials even go into electric vehicles, what are the types of batteries that are leading in the electric vehicle market? How do you expect that maybe to change over time, given the costs and the resources it takes to acquire some of these materials?

Grace Donnelly: Yeah. So electric vehicles are powered by lithium-ion batteries right now. And so those use a variety of materials, but they're going to use lithium. A lot of them use cobalt and nickel and other metals like that. So some of these materials are really expensive. Cobalt, for example, is pricey. There are a lot of issues in the ethics around mining it. And so there are a lot of companies that are trying to decrease the amount of cobalt you need in a lithium-ion battery. There's been an increase in the use of lithium iron phosphate batteries, or LFP batteries. And so those are cheaper to make. The materials are cheaper, but they also have typically lower ranges when you use them in an EV, so you're not going to get as many miles on one charge as you might with a lithium-ion battery that uses cobalt and nickel. So there's a lot of different types. Really the cost of the battery is sometimes about a third of the cost of the EV overall. So getting those to be more affordable is really important in reaching price parity with internal combustion engine vehicles. But for right now, there's other kinds of batteries, but typically the only ones in use now are going to be lithium-ion batteries in EVs.

Nora Ali: You mentioned some of the ethical concerns here in acquiring those materials. We had journalist Molly Wood on our podcast earlier who talked about some of the impacts to Indigenous communities, to the wilderness, for example, when it comes to mining lithium. So what are some of the ethical concerns that you've researched?

Grace Donnelly: Yeah. So with lithium, there are concerns for communities and the impacts it'll have, there are environmental concerns. There are a couple of different ways to get lithium out of the ground. They basically either use a lot of energy or they use a lot of water. So either way, you're looking at pretty big downsides in trying to do that in an environmentally friendly way. And you also on top of just the challenge of the extraction process and getting a mine up and running, you then also have concerns from community members that might change the circumstances there.

Scott Rogowsky: You did some reporting on a startup called Lilac, which has received a lot of investment funding because of their proprietary technology that apparently is able to extract lithium in a much more economic way, less damaging. It could do it in two hours versus two years apparently and use an acre of land versus 10,000 acres of land. Are you hopeful that we're going to find a solution here so that we don't have this structural shortage that's being predicted?

Grace Donnelly: I mean, lithium is an abundant metal. There's plenty of lithium on Earth, but there aren't enough operations pulling it out of the ground and refining it to the quality that you need to put it into electric vehicles. And so there is a shortage. We're entering into a shortage, and automakers are trying to figure out how they're going to source enough lithium to meet these lofty goals they have in EV production. And so you are seeing companies bet on these solutions that haven't been proven yet, but sound super promising. You have BMW investing in Lilac. You have companies like GM investing in mining operations. And so you're seeing this push slowly for automakers to invest further upstream to try and really establish the supply chain for lithium, which is non-negotiable for these EV batteries at this point

Nora Ali: With all of these different kinds of automakers trying to compete in the electric vehicle space, what is your perspective on who might be better positioned to be able to spend the resources, to find materials, to find alternative forms of energy, whether it's the traditional automakers like GM, which you mentioned, and Ford, they're all going all-in on electric vehicles, or the Teslas of the world that are inherently electric vehicle companies? We also have hundreds of startups in China, for example, that are electric vehicle companies. Who do you think is best positioned to really tackle the market?

Grace Donnelly: It's hard to predict, but everyone's chasing Tesla right now, at least in the US automaker world. I mean, you have GM planning to spend $35 billion through 2025 on electric and autonomous vehicles. Ford is going to spend 30 billion in that time frame. So they're betting it all trying to catch up to Tesla basically because Tesla's already got production set up and they're trying to navigate this EV supply chain and production process, and they're kind of playing catch up in some ways. So I don't know for sure who's going to come out on top, but I think you have pros and cons for each side because you do have with Ford and GM, they know how to manufacture. They have the strength of all that experience, but you do have some of the agility with some of these startups to maybe leapfrog into just straight EV production.

Scott Rogowsky: We've talked about the environmental impacts of extracting a lot of the materials necessary for the batteries these vehicles use. That's not even mentioning the carbon cost of building the vehicles themselves. I wonder if there's any skepticism out there that EVs will be good enough in terms of their energy efficiency. How do you feel about that?

Grace Donnelly: I think one thing that's really stuck out to me is that there are these comparisons today about the total environmental impact of building one of these cars from the mining process, all the way through production and driving it through end of life. But electric vehicles are only going to get cleaner and greener over the years, because we're going to be adding more renewables to our grid. And so you're going to be using cleaner energy to power your car. As production ramps up, there are a lot of companies working on recycling and trying to create a closed-loop battery ecosystem where we don't necessarily have to continue to extract these materials forever and ever because we can reuse some of them as batteries get to the end of life and things like that. So, today there may be some comparison there, but in the long run, certainly you're going to see EVs being a lot more environmentally friendly than gas-powered cars.

Nora Ali: All right. Well, Grace, thank you so much for joining us to share some of your reporting on our podcast. Grace Donnelly is one of Morning Brew's very own emerging tech reporters. She will be back at the end of the show for our quiz. But first, when we come back we'll hear my conversation with Frank Reig, the CEO of Revel, which is a company looking to leverage all of the innovation in the EV space to electrify transportation in major cities. Stay with us.

Nora Ali: So Frank, thank you for joining us on the show.

Frank Reig: Nora, thanks for having me.

Nora Ali: So Revel is trying to electrify mobility in cities across the US. And that includes New York City, DC, San Francisco, and your website states. We're not talking about 2030. Our products are 100% electric today, which not a lot of companies can say at this point. What inspired you to start the company in the first place?

Frank Reig: Yeah, it's a great question, Nora. When you talk about the inspiration for this company, I think you have to go back to when I first moved to New York after college. My professional background is a little different, I think, from a lot of entrepreneurs or CEOs. I actually worked as a chef for about five years in New York City restaurants, around 2007 to about 2012. I lived in far out neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens. Every single day, I'd hop on my bike and bike six, eight, 10 miles to work in Manhattan and then bike back at 1:00, 2:00 in the morning. So that sort of love of moving around a city on two wheels is what sparked the inspiration for Revel. And also just traveling overseas and seeing mopeds as a sort of vehicle form factor. So popular in so many countries, rich, poor, it doesn't matter. And just thinking, why is this vehicle tied not in a city like New York?

Nora Ali: So as you mentioned, it's pretty popular as a form of transportation in other places, European cities, South American cities, but there is still this safety concern in very dense cities, like New York city, for example. How do you change that psychology for consumers who might be worried to try out a moped in a big city for the first time here in the US?


Frank Reig: When it comes to moped safety, before anyone can get on one of our mopeds in any of our markets, you have to go through a pretty lengthy safety training, really teaches you how to ride the vehicle, what to be looking out for when you ride a vehicle like this. Before any time you step on one of our mopeds, every single time you ride, you also take what we call a helmet selfie, proving to us that you are wearing that helmet, that helmet is on your head before you ride. And I think it's really interesting since Revel formed, what we're really doing, too, with the moped product is really just trying to change car culture. So many cities in US is so car dependent, and it's really nice to offer an option, whether it's New York, San Francisco, DC, Miami, offer the residents in these cities a really just easy, lightweight, environmental-friendly way to get around, and a fun way to get around.

Nora Ali: So during the pandemic, obviously a lot of changes to people's commutes and where and how we work. Did the pandemic change any of the trends that you saw for consumers maybe opting to use mopeds when they otherwise wouldn't have?

Frank Reig: Absolutely. Both our moped product and our rideshare product now really is the perfect indicator for where we are in the COVID cycle. I'll just put it that way. Now if you're thinking about the last two years, we've had almost three COVID lockdowns now and our ridership, both on mopeds and rideshare, tracks exactly to how that lockdown is going. So if you take 2020, for example, from March to May of 2020, ridership fell off a cliff, revenue fell off a cliff, but then you saw that rebound starting in May, and then definitely once cities really started to open up in June of 2020, you saw a massive amount of ridership across all of our markets. You take rideshare, which we launched in August of 2021, this past summer, you had really exceptional ridership along with a moped business. And then around December 15th, you saw a dip. I would say around January 15th, you really started to see ridership come back. So again, sort of tracking COVID in real time, just look at our data.

Nora Ali: You are looking towards a larger mission, in that you're not just trying to provide mobility through your company, but also trying to make electric vehicles and electric transportation more accessible to consumers overall. So you've spoken in past interviews about this chicken and egg problem, where maybe consumers are hesitant to buy an electric vehicle because the infrastructure, the charging stations, aren't quite there yet. What is the solution to this chicken and egg problem?

Frank Reig: So the chicken-egg problem to listeners out there it's really, there's no EV infrastructure. So there's no EVs. There's no EVs, so there's no EV infrastructure. It is a very simple, elegant problem that everyone has been daring to solve for over a decade now, for those that have been in the electric vehicle industry. The way we're solving that is bringing the whole platform at the same time. So I am building publicly available EV infrastructure at-scale in cities like New York. Our first site in Bed-Stuy is the largest in the country when it comes to an EV charging site. We have many more behind it that'll be launched in 2022 and beyond. And we are building these sites and carry it with our mobility side of the business. So our rideshare business will scale alongside of it and provide that demand to that site. That allows us to go get financing from folks like BlackRock and Toyota to build these sites, because we're bringing the demand from our own business to those sites. So we're kind of solving the chicken and the egg problem by just doing it all at once.

Nora Ali: All right, let's take a very quick break, more with Frank when we return. So you were mentioning how Revel has a partnership with Tesla, an all-Tesla fleet for ridesharing. How did this relationship form in the first place? And why Tesla?

Frank Reig: So just to be super clear with listeners, we do not have any sort of strategic partnership with Tesla, but we do use Tesla vehicles for our rideshare fleet. You know that relationship started through, I think it was an investor contact. And then you get connected to the sales folks at Tesla. For us right now, Tesla is the leader. I think that's pretty clear, from battery technology, battery range, price point, brand, they're the leader. So we're going to continue to use Tesla probably through 2022, but there are a lot of car companies, as you know, that are hot on their heels and delivering a lot of models in the years ahead here.

Nora Ali: So that does sound like its part of the plan then is maybe even traditional automakers who are getting more into EVs.

Frank Reig: Folks like Toyota are on our board. Folks like Hyundai are also an investor. So it's obviously a conversation we're having. By the end of the day, we're going to make a decision moving forward that's based on those criteria I mentioned: brand, battery, technology, battery range and price. We're constantly going to be surveying the market for what's the best out there.

Nora Ali: One of the very interesting things about your model is that rather than relying on the gig economy, like a lot of other rideshare companies, Revel plans to hire drivers, or has full-time drivers, other rideshare companies have opted for this as well. Some of the newer ones like Alto, for example. Curious to hear what is your strategy behind that?

Frank Reig: From the day we started this company in 2018, on the moped side of the business, we've never used a gig economy. I've never employed gig workers. We've always had W-2 employees swapping batteries in that fleet as mechanics. I think it's just a core philosophy of this company. You want to employ the residents of the city that you're operating in. So that was just something we've always had from day one. I think when it comes to the rideshare system, I think it gives us a big advantage. The incumbents right now that do rideshare, they're always trying to, I'll just say gamify drivers, because they're not an employee. And it's almost a constant tension between the driver and the incumbent rideshare business. For us, drivers are employee. We tell them where to drive. We tell them where to go. We don't need to gamify anything. We don't need to have very weird pricing incentives and cost incentives, and just take out the whole gamification. You're able to just run a business the way it's supposed to be run, which is as efficiently as possible. And when you control your own fleet, you control the vehicle, you control the infrastructure, you control the car. And that opens up a lot of efficiencies that the incumbents don't have.

Nora Ali: This gamification though is what got the Ubers and Lyfts on the map. I'm curious, was there any particular experience that you had or conversations with drivers that you had that sparked this decision to hire drivers full-time versus contract?

Frank Reig: I think when you talk to drivers, and I've talked to you a lot, especially as we've gone into this business, there actually is no perfect model. Some drivers do really appreciate that flexibility. But you know what? A lot of drivers really like the employee model. We have not had trouble hiring. A lot of drivers really appreciate that. If they get a flat tire in their shift, they're still going to get paid that day. And they're not going to be on the hook for that vehicle maintenance. There are a lot of folks in New York City that want to drive for Revel because they're not on the hook for any vehicle maintenance, any electricity costs, any insurance cost.


Nora Ali: Looking at the apply to be a driver's page on your website, there's a lot of incentives there. There's paid time off, access to health insurance, paid for hours behind the wheel, not by number of rides given, and drivers receiving 100% of tips. But then if you look at Uber, part of their argument to use contract workers is because it allows them to keep prices lower for customers. Also, they claim that drivers like the flexibility of contract work. So my overall question here is, how do you keep drivers happy and give them what they need while also keeping prices reasonable for your customers?

Frank Reig: The way we've set up pay to incentivize drivers to what the business needs at the end of the day. So depending on the shift, the day of the week, obviously more drivers want to get to drive Monday than they do Sunday. So guess what? We pay more on Sunday. So for us, this model is not going to be taken to, I'll just call them, Tier 2, Tier 3 cities, in the US. I'm sure you've experienced yourself. You travel to a smaller city in the South or the Midwest and you take a 30-minute ride with one of the incumbents and it's $12. That is not reality. There is not rational pricing. That is not a business. This works in major urban markets, like in New York, where the pricing is rational, where the incumbents are very profitable. This is a very real business. So I would say it's also just being real with ourselves that this model that we have, this vertically integrated model works really well, but not everywhere.

Nora Ali: It's good to admit that. I appreciate that. Certainly a lot of regulatory hurdles to get over for mopeds and for ridesharing generally. You've been pretty vocal about working with city officials to ask for permission rather than asking for forgiveness. So what does compliance look like? What does that conversation look like with city officials for you?

Frank Reig: This has been a core tenet of how we operate from Day One as well. So even back in 2018, when it was me and my co-founder and were trying to launch 68 mopeds in Bushwick and Greenpoint and Williamsburg, I had a direct line to New York City DOT and I made sure they knew who I was and what we were doing. I had essentially their verbal permission. We were talking to New York City council members of those districts. One of them even came to our press conference of that launch back in 2018 to support us. So even as two co-founders launching this business in 2018, we knew to be successful you needed government on your side, you needed policymakers on your side, you needed community on your side. We have tried to have that ethos moving forward for the last four years. As we've scaled the moped business, we've never launched somewhere without permission. So it's a very simple thing, but I think it's really important. It also sets the tone for the relationship with that city.

Nora Ali: That is ethically very sound and seems like the right way to do things, but maybe a little antithetical to how Big Tech tends to operate. They do a thing and then regulation catches up to them. Do you think this may slow down innovation to some extent, or do you think you're saving yourself time and headache by making sure that city officials are okay with your business before you launch anything new?

Frank Reig: I think something I've noticed is a lot of startups look at regulation in a closed sort of room. They don't realize that regulation is so influenced by politics. Before you even walk into a room with a regulator, you have that initial conversation, third conversation, whatever it is, you better understand the politics behind the scenes. You better understand who actually has the power behind the scenes or else you're not getting anything done.


Nora Ali: It's a game of chess, but it sounds like you've figured it out and gotten to know the right people. Frank, we are going to leave things there. This is a great conversation. Frank Reig is the CEO and co-founder of Revel. Thanks again, Frank.

Scott Rogowsky: Now it's time for quizness casual, the Business Casual quiz. Grace Donnelly is back with us and teaming up with Nora to tackle three questions all about the EV industry. This should come easy to you because you know it so well.

Nora Ali: No pressure though.

Scott Rogowsky: But no pressure. I say that sometimes and then the questions are ridiculously hard. So qumero numero uno. How long did Elon Musk last in his Stanford PhD program? Not quite about the EV industry, but an EV player. 

Nora Ali: It's tangentially related. Yes.

Scott Rogowsky: Two months, two weeks, two years, or two days?

Nora Ali: I feel like this is a fun fact you whip out at a party and people get so impressed by your knowledge, or they don't care. I honestly have no idea. Do you have any inkling, Grace?

Grace Donnelly: I am not up on my Elon Musk trivia. I'll say that. No, I don't know.

Nora Ali: It's probably something fun, like only two weeks. I feel like it's not two years because that seems too normal.

Grace Donnelly: Let's do two days.

Nora Ali: Let's do it.

Grace Donnelly: I think that's the shock value.

Scott Rogowsky: Otherwise, it wouldn't be an interesting question.

Nora Ali: Two days.

Scott Rogowsky: That's the other thing. Exactly. Tesla CEO, Elon Musk dropped out of Stanford in two days to start his company called Zip2.

Nora Ali: Zip2. Zip-two-dee-doo-dah.

Scott Rogowsky: Zip-two-dee-doo-dah. I guess that one didn't quite make it, but he seemed to do okay since then.

Nora Ali: Nice.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. You got one. Here's Q2. Which of the following companies made the next bestselling EV after Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 in 2021? Ford, Chevrolet, Nissan, or Audi?

Grace Donnelly: I think it would be Ford. I think the Mustang Mach-E sold a lot of ... Like 25,000. Something like that.

Nora Ali: Yeah. I agree with Grace. Let's lock in Ford.

Scott Rogowsky: I wasn't even asking for the specific number, but boy, you came pretty close to the money there. Yes. Ford Mustang Mach-E sold 27,140 units last year. Amazing.

Nora Ali: Grace is on fire.

Scott Rogowsky: You knew almost to the letter there. Okay. Two for two. This is going very well. Here it is the final question, which of the following celebrities does not own an electric car?

Nora Ali: Oh, man.

Scott Rogowsky: Cameron Diaz, Robert Downey Jr., Lena Dunham, or Ben Affleck?

Grace Donnelly: I don't know why my gut says Ben Affleck. I don't know.

Scott Rogowsky: Really? Interesting.


Grace Donnelly: Maybe I don't know the personal lives of any of these people. 

Nora Ali: I don't either.

Scott Rogowsky: If you know where they're all from, maybe think about where they grew up, that might factor into it.

Nora Ali: Is Lena Dunham a New Yorker or is that just Girls?

Grace Donnelly: I don't know.

Nora Ali: The show. All I know about RDJ is that he's Iron Man. Iron Man would definitely have an electric vehicle.

Grace Donnelly: Yeah. He would have an EV.

Nora Ali: I'm going to cross out Robert Downey Jr., I'm going to cross out Lena Dunham. Cameron Diaz is probably on the West Coast somewhere. I don't know. I mean, your gut told you Ben Affleck, Grace. So let's trust your gut. Let's go with it, Ben Affleck.

Scott Rogowsky: Ben Affleck, the phoenix rising on his back. The dragon there. He's an interesting guy, does own an electric vehicle.

Grace Donnelly: Does have an electric vehicle. My bad though.

Scott Rogowsky: Lena Dunham, you were right on the track there with Lena being from New York City, never learned to drive. 

Nora Ali: Should have gone with that.

Grace Donnelly: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: That was great. Two out of three ain't bad. Grace, congratulations. You know your stuff. Nora, you know your stuff. Thanks for chatting with us today.

Grace Donnelly: Yeah, this was fun. Thanks.

Scott Rogowsky: I'd say it was electrifying. We love hearing from our listeners, we do. So sock it to us, baby, because we're working on an upcoming episode about the psychedelic drugs business and we'd love to hear your thoughts. Maybe we can hear them telekinetically, psychedelically, without you even telling us. No, we still need to hear from you. So send us an email at or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Z casualpod.

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website,, or give us a ring and leave us an old-fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode. 

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is super charged by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get nasty with your podcasting. We'd love it if you would give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.