May 12, 2022

How Quinn’s Audio Erotica is Reimagining Porn

Let’s talk about sex


Nora and Scott chat with Caroline Spiegel, founder and CEO of Quinn, audio erotica for women, and host of the podcast The Quinn Show, about building an audio erotica app, finding community on TikTok and recruiting the best creators and vocal talent in the biz. Presented by Policygenius.

 

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Check out the full transcript of this episode below. 

Transcript

Nora Ali: For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, wearing sensible, yet revealing clothing, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: Okay. Where do we even begin?

Scott Rogowsky: In the beginning, there was erotica. Isn't that the first line of the Bible?

Nora Ali: I wonder what is the history of erotica. You're right, probably since the beginning of humankind. Right? Scott, had you heard of audio porn before this conversation?

Scott Rogowsky: It's funny, I hadn't. But I had thought of it. I thought about ... Seriously. I mean, I honestly thought a few years ago. I'm like, "What if there's a podcast where it's just people having sex as an audio experience?"

Nora Ali: Like ASMR of sex encounters in real life.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm aware of the theater of the mind, as I think we both are being in this audio medium. There is something to the idea of imagining what's happening instead of seeing it explicitly, getting assaulted with the sense, being blasted with the imagery.

Nora Ali: Yeah. Well, the founder that we talked to has done a great job of taking that notion and making it into a successful business, which I love. So today, we are talking to Caroline Spiegel, the founder and CEO of Quinn, a subscription audio erotica app for women. Think of Quinn as a romance novel condensed into 15-to-20 minutes, narrated by a cast of often sensual voices. Since launching in June, Quinn has grown over 70% month over month. And Caroline, who dropped out of Stanford, by the way, to found the company, stopped by to talk about disrupting the male-centered porn industry, and how Quinn is creating erotic content for a new generation. We'll get to our conversation with Caroline after this quick break. Caroline, hello.

Caroline Spiegel: Good morning. How are you?

Nora Ali: Good morning. We're so good. We're better now that we've both ... We've each listened to Quinn.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes.

Nora Ali: We gave it a go.

Scott Rogowsky: We're feeling a little more relaxed now.

Caroline Spiegel: Good morning, indeed.

Nora Ali: So, Caroline, I listened to "Bodyguard Part One," that's what your team had recommended. But in your own words, what exactly is Quinn? And how is it catering to this underserved market?

Caroline Spiegel: Quinn is an audio erotica app. Our target audience is women, but there's no gender check. Scott knows. He listened. We had to allow men to listen as well.

Scott Rogowsky: "I Can't Wait, Pull Over" was the episode I listened to. Let's just say I put myself in the narrator's shoes for that one.

Nora Ali: So Caroline, before we get carried away talking about these episodes, let's go back to the beginning. How did Quinn start?

Caroline Spiegel: So I started Quinn actually in 2019. I was a senior at Stanford. I was studying computer systems and it was a very ... I mean, I loved it, but it was a very male-dominated, kind of dense major I was in. And at the same time, I was recovering from an eating disorder. And one of the main side effects, if you could even call it that, was just a total loss of libido and interest in sex, and ability to orgasm. And I think kind of naturally, I turned to porn. And I was like, "Okay, I want to try and get aroused. I want to get back in my mojo." And I was just so disappointed and frustrated with what I found, especially at this point where I was like, I really needed a solution. I really wanted to be aroused. And so I felt really frustrated with the Pornhubs of the world, and that's when I found audio erotica and Reddit and Tumblr and Literotica and all these kind of deeper internet communities, where it's really, really popular.

Nora Ali: And your origin story is very personal, and you've been very open in sharing that. And Scott and I have talked to founders before where their story is critical to the brand because that's what helps convince investors or other partners to get on board, is telling this personal story. Did you feel like that was part of building the brand and part of getting attention for Quinn in the early days?

Caroline Spiegel: Definitely. And I think even more than that, I'm just genuinely very energized about this solution. I've been at it for over three years now. It's something I wake up every morning and I'm connected to, so I think that's maybe a case for doing something that you're personally invested in.

Scott Rogowsky: In your research when you started Quinn, you discovered a stat that I was surprised to learn. There were 30-plus FDA approved sexual dysfunction solutions for men, but not many for women. In fact, there is currently only one available to women according to an announcement from the FDA published in June 2019.

Caroline Spiegel: So there have been a few tries for the Viagra for women, but nothing has really caught onto the mainstream. And one of the reasons is because female sexuality is maybe a little more nuanced and a richer kind of contextual desire, which I think any woman or man can kind of relate to, why that's the case. But yeah, so that's why the solution for Quinn isn't this quick fix in a way. It's more of changing our thinking around porn and what it means to be turned on and to experience desire.

Nora Ali: So, Caroline, in the early days as you were thinking about what Quinn would be and how you were trying to tackle these big questions, like what it means to be turned on and experience desire, what was that process like? Because the FDA, as we talked about, isn't paying as much attention to women's sexual desire as we'd like, and the majority of the porn industry is geared towards that male gaze? So what did you hear from women in your research process? And I ask because I think it can be hard to articulate what you're looking for, and you figured that out for a lot of women.

Caroline Spiegel: Right. So I mean, I've talked to so many women about sex at this point, there's a joke that I like boys, but that I've made millions of women come. And it's so true. It's embarrassing how much I've talked about sex with women. But one of the first things I did was I interviewed about 100 women just about their sexual preferences. This was in 2019 when I first started Quinn and before we had a live product. And you know it's so funny, I still remember a lot of those conversations. I still have the notes from them. And a lot of them were about safety, and I think that's a really interesting insight, was that for a lot of women, there's sort of a threshold to experience arousal. And it's a feeling of safety. Of course, I'm not going to be able to relax and let go and experience pleasure if I'm feeling kind of unsafe, or scared, or whatever. So that was definitely one just resounding message that I think Pornhub doesn't take into account, or MindGeek, or the porn industry. And I think another thing you mentioned, like the porn industry not taking into account the female perspective. The people who make the most money from the porn industry are men. There are not a lot of female executives in the existing porn industry. And so I think that kind of illuminates, well, when you go on Pornhub, you're seeing a lot of women. At the end of the day, who's making the most money from porn? Men.

Scott Rogowsky: The vast majority of the porn industry does not seem to incorporate the perspective of women, but there are quite a few feminist porn sites out there. And I think what's interesting about Quinn, and maybe what separates it from the other feminist porn options, is that Quinn has chosen to shed the visual element. Can you talk about how you think about the differences between more traditional visual porn and audio erotica?

Caroline Spiegel: So I always say that audio is actually more visual than visual porn. And what I mean by that, it's sort of like the Harry Potter effect, if you remember the first time you ever read Harry Potter and you had the most vibrant, insane imagery in your head. And everyone had their own Diagon Alley and what it looked like. And that's the same thing we try to do with Quinn, where you can make the world in your imagination in HD with whoever you want, wherever you want, whatever you want. And that's something that both is the most pleasurable, but also allows you to kind of be playful and experimental with your sexuality in a way that kind of tying the fantasy to a real act with real people doesn't. There's a great feminist quote by Andrea Dworkin, who's a famous anti-porn feminist. I don't agree with a lot of the things she's said, but she said, "People always call porn fantasy, but it's not really because those are two real people doing those acts in real life. It's no longer fantasy. It exists in life." And so with Quinn, a lot of those ethical concerns are mitigated because it's in your imagination, and it's people acting and storytelling.

Nora Ali: I love that you said or referenced the Harry Potter effect because I had such a crush on Cedric Diggory when I was reading the books in my head. And then Robert Pattinson plays Cedric Diggory in the films and I was like, "I don't even think he's that cute," so I lost it for Cedric Diggory.

Caroline Spiegel: Devastated.

Nora Ali: Yeah, I wanted to keep it in my head, but Robert ruined it. Anyway, let's take a very quick break. More with Caroline when we come back. Caroline, in 2019, the MTA, which is New York's public transit system, had banned all ads from the sex tech, and wellness company, Dame, because they had depicted sex toys, which at the time went against MTA's guidelines. But they had allowed at the time ads to run about erectile dysfunction. The MTA has softened its stance a little bit, but it still seems like there is this stigma around women's sexual pleasure. What did you encounter as an entrepreneur working in such a stigmatized industry, especially in the early days?

Caroline Spiegel: Well, something I've noticed is that sex is totally fine to Facebook and the MTA or whatever, until you actually call it sex. So for example, they're fine with a Burger King ad with a nude model in it. But as soon as you advertise sexual wellness, or sexual health, or ethical sexual content, that's when it's a problem. So I think it's kind of a tell about our society, and not all societies are like this, that we insist that sex be segmented and pushed into a dark corner, rather than incorporated into our lives as a healthy, normal, natural instinct. The fact that we have massive billboards about Euphoria, which I love, by the way, which is 10 times more explicit than a sex toy ad. Come on, you've got to give it up at a certain point of, you've got to be realistic about what kids are seeing and what is appropriate. I mean, if you go on Instagram right now, 80% of the content is very graphic of women's bodies. That's just the reality. It's pornographic in a lot of ways. But they draw the line so arbitrarily and in a way that doesn't really add up to me. But it's a branding challenge, it's a marketing challenge. It tends to not be actually that tied to what our actual product is. It's an association, a marketing trick, how to warm people up to the concept and use words that they feel safe around. And so I would say that's how I've gone into conversations with stakeholders, payment processors, legal resources, whatever. It's just kind of like, "Okay, they want to keep their brand really spic and span." How can we communicate this in a way that resonates with them?

Nora Ali: That's really interesting. So you're sort of adjusting your language and your approach to make the other party feel a little bit more comfortable. Hopefully we can get to a place where you don't have to change anything. And these old white men you're pitching to are like, "Yeah, this is great. We love this." But dig into that a little bit more. What do you do to prepare yourself to pitch to people who might not understand the product itself and might not even be close to the target demo that you're trying to reach? How do you prep for that?

Caroline Spiegel: So it's actually funny because people you'll expect to be super aghast at the concept of audio erotica end up being so chill about it. And then the flip, the reverse, is also true. So I tend to go into the conversation and I'll run a few experiments, see their initial reaction to the word masturbation or whatever, and see how we can reach an understanding about ... And by the way, I was not always this way. When I first started Quinn, I was like, "Audio porn, let's go," so aggressive about it. But I think it's just not effective and I have to just kind of respect that people have different comfort levels. Not everyone is working in the space every day, and at no fault of their own, have a lot of shame and bad associations with this topic.

Nora Ali: So you test the waters with masturbation and then see where you can go from there.

Caroline Spiegel: Throw in a clitoris.

Scott Rogowsky: I think we neglected to mention that you actually dropped out of Stanford to pursue Quinn full-time. That's a big decision. And this is happening at a time when this industry, which has been growing the last few years, hadn't really taken off yet. Was that a scary moment for you? I mean, I wanted to drop out of college, and my parents were like, "Just get the degree. You have something to fall back on." But was that ever a tension for you and your family?

Caroline Spiegel: Yeah. I forget where I read this quote, but the reason why you start a startup is because you're unemployable. That was definitely my feeling. I was like, "I don't know who's going to want to hire me," whatever. But also, I felt so energized and excited about Quinn. I think one thing I feel grateful for, so many ideas come and go. Every day I wake up with 10 new features ideas, or 10 new marketing ideas, and one maybe sticks six months later. But here I am, very significantly into this journey. And I feel more energized than the first day I started Quinn about this problem. And our solution has changed a lot. We've had multiple different products, tried different things, but it's really the problem. And I believe that for women to have some semblance of equality, we have to feel like agents in the most kind of intimate parts of our lives. We can't just continue to feel like sex is happening to us. And I'm just excited, so ultimately dropping out was a good call, but it could've gone either way.

Nora Ali: You mentioned that there were different sort of versions of it, and you have tons of feature ideas every day, and the solution has changed. So I'm just scrolling through the app right now, and the discovery tab is beautiful. I honestly think it does a better job of letting you discover new content than, say, a Spotify, or even Apple Podcasts in some ways. So what was that process and that journey for you like, and figuring out what is the right user experience? And how do you continue to adapt and cater to the needs of your users?

Caroline Spiegel: So it ties back to that earlier thing I said about safety. I think of it on a scale. On one end, you have safety, and on the other end you have sexiness. You could consider sexual education Instagram for example, really on the safe end. You could imagine Pornhub being on the really sexually explicit sexy end. And so it's balancing these two things we want from our sexual content. We want to feel safe and we want to feel comfortable enough to explore, but we don't want it to be so educational it's like a wet blanket. Right? You want to have a little bit of excitement. You want to try something new, obviously. So it's about balancing those two things, the fun and the safety. Another model for sexuality that's really helpful is the accelerator and the brakes. So for example, you might be hooking up with someone and you say a word, or a phrase, or something that makes their arousal slam on the brakes. Right? And they're like, "I'm sorry. I don't like being called X," or whatever. And then there are things that are accelerators, which are some people can only get really into sex when the lights are off, or some people really care about how the room smells, or that the sheets are clean, or all these things that are accelerators.

Nora Ali: But how do you translate those into the audio experience, the accelerators and the brakes? How does that translate?

Caroline Spiegel: Well, let's take "The Bodyguard" for example. I think it would be maybe a little bit of a brake moment if I was listening to "The Bodyguard" and the first thing I hear is them fucking up against the wall. What the fuck is happening? But instead, it builds, and you get to know the relationship. Right? It's like this is a protector figure. He sees this side of me all day. I feel really glamorous because I'm this famous princess in the audio. And it's like the detective model of arousal, where you're taking in all these context clues and coming up with a decision. And it's how women look at dating apps. Right? They're taking in all the clues and they're like, "Yes."

Nora Ali: Reading between the lines. Oh, I love that.

Caroline Spiegel: It's just not as simple as we're brought up to believe or as society would like us to believe.

Nora Ali: It's like emotional foreplay, those conversations that lead up to the moment I think in these audios. So good.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, before we accelerate any further, let's hit the brakes for about 60 seconds. More with Caroline when we come back. Caroline, let's get deeper into the actual content itself on the Quinn app by starting with a clip from one of Quinn's most popular creators. Take a listen.

[BEGIN AUDIO CLIP]

Quinn audio narrator: This is my room. I'm pretty sure it's exactly like yours. Right? Every room's the same here. Does your view look at the beach, or do you look back at the mountains? You look back at the mountains, you need to see the beach view. Come check it out.

[/END AUDIO CLIP]

Scott Rogowsky: That's just revving me up.

Nora Ali: This guy sounds really hot. Oh, my gosh.

Caroline Spiegel: Is that Sebastian?

Nora Ali: It was, it was Sebastian. We've gotten confirmation from our producers.

Scott Rogowsky: Sebastian. Okay, first of all, who is Sebastian? Who are these creators? How do you find them? Let's get into the nuts and bolts of the production, because we were talking before this interview with our producers, who can appreciate this. This is not just some slapdash thing. There are sound effects. There's sound design. You have obviously professional voiceover people. You've got real production, scripting, going into each one of these.

Caroline Spiegel: Yeah. So what's so amazing about Quinn is that we have sort of a curated collection of creators that we really work with. We hand-curate them. We scout them. We obviously work with them to pay them what they feel is fair, give them bonuses. And you can think of it like Peloton, or even Spotify, or Headspace, where you can choose creator you're going to engage with on the platform. I personally love the recruiting aspect, recruiting creators. It's one of my favorite things to do. It's America's Got Talent, but a little spicier. Sebastian, for example, is a big TikTok star. He makes a lot of POV videos, so it's like POV, I'm your boyfriend and you come home after work. He's an actor. He's a very talented actor. And yeah, we just kind of found him, and I was like, "Yeah, this is going to work."

Nora Ali: This sounds like a dream job. Wow, casting for hot voice actors. I was looking on ... You guys have a very robust TikTok page, by the way, I think 130,000, almost 130,000 followers. And there's this guy named Eli that people love on TikTok especially. There's this comment on a TikTok about him that said, "I would let Eli do anything to me, honestly." And then by the way, another comment on that same video said, "This app saved my life." So you are out here actually changing lives. But on the topic of TikTok, how important has it been for your growth? Because I know you guys were not paying for ads, at least at first. So how has TikTok really contributed?

Caroline Spiegel: I cannot say enough positive things about TikTok. I know there are concerns about TikTok, but for me as a young startup, it was so useful in being able to test marketing angles basically. So we try explaining Quinn different ways. We talk about audios in different ways, and creators, and ask people questions. In our audience and the community that's slowly starting to build on TikTok has been so informative for the product. And the scale we can reach on TikTok is massive and would cost us thousands of dollars via Facebook or other ads. And what's actually so funny is everyone started joining me in that America's Got Talent of it all. People will tag us any time someone with a hot voice goes viral, we get 50 comments: @Quinn, you know what to do. Found you one.

Nora Ali: That's so great. You're the go-to for hot audio, for hot voices. You come to mind for everyone. Going back to this, I think I imagine it was an intentional decision not to pay for social media advertisements early on. Since launching, you had a 70% month over month growth. Why was that your decision to not pay for advertising. And why did that change over time?

Caroline Spiegel: So again, going back to my kind of perspective on building Quinn, I am committed to this for the long haul, and very willing to change, adapt, iterate and find what's working and what's not working and try to, as much as possible, face the music about what's working and not working. And so I kind of take a slower approach. We don't have a staff of 100 people or anywhere close. We haven't raised a massive amount of money. We're just kind of figuring it out. And I think that thing with paid advertising, we have and continue to do paid advertising experiments, I would call them, not massive campaigns. It's again to figure out what messaging is working. We need to try a bunch of things before spending a lot of money on acquisition with those kind of marketing angles. And then the second piece is, until we had a product that I was positive the retention was healthy and it wouldn't tank as soon as we started adding a bunch of new people into the community, you don't want to have the premium subscription media curse, where you bring in a ton of people via paid and they use it once. That's not the intended goal here. We want to be a serious subscription contender, and someone to be a product people love to use weekly, daily.

Nora Ali: So the annual subscription price is $35.00, $4.99 monthly. How did you land on that? And have you experimented with different price points and models?

Caroline Spiegel: Yeah. So our content is relatively, I would say, inexpensive compared to Netflix, for example, where they're spending billions of dollars on their content production. We just obviously don't spend that much money on content production. So the economics of it just makes sense to be a lower price point. We aren't doing sets and shoots and hiring 12 people to create the content. It's really about purchasing the content from these amazing creators, and that allows for just a lower price point for our users.

Scott Rogowsky: What is the current competitive landscape for female-focused audio erotica? Who are you going up against?

Caroline Spiegel: Well, it depends that lens you're viewing it from. One genre that I'm particularly interested in is romance novels, and in general, smut, fan fiction, written erotica. I mean, we don't have written erotica, but I could see that as an alternative to using Quinn, so big competitors there, Wattpad, Radish Fiction, both of which sold for close to a billion dollars to a South Korean internet conglomerates like in 2019. Also, you have Tumblr, where the written erotica community is still going. There are a lot of fan fiction, web 1.0, massive archives online. And then there's Audible and Kindle. And Audible's top grossing genre is romance. That's insane. And those stories are porn, in no uncertain terms, they have very graphic sex scenes.

Nora Ali: It's important because your brand, it's so blatant. It is what it is. It's for female sexual pleasure. It's for sexual pleasure and that's what the audio is intended to do. So this kind of content, to your point, had existed in other forms, on other platforms on Reddit for example, but you packaged it so beautifully. You reach the audience who have felt unheard and unseen. So what do you think it is about the brand of Quinn that makes people on TikTok think of Quinn when they hear some hot man's voice on social media? What is it about your brand that makes it stand out?

Caroline Spiegel: I think there are a lot of genres of content that start as forums basically on a Reddit, or Twitter, or whatever. And people have been making audio erotica in that form since 2015, and it hasn't entered fully the mainstream. It's when you go on the Reddit subs, they're hard to sift there. There's a lot of lingo happening. There's a lot of tags that are jarring, obviously, and intimidating. And the same with Pornhub, you might feel kind of unsafe there as well. So the goal with Quinn was to make something that could reasonably be in the mainstream and be the default option for women everywhere. And I don't think that existed in the landscape before us.

Scott Rogowsky: Are all your audios monologues, that POV-style monologues? Do you have dialogues or some of those things? And I'm curious, was that an experimentation that you did and tested out with what users respond to more? I also want to know about gradations of the sexuality because like you mentioned, there's a spectrum there in terms of how explicit you want to get. Do you have different tiers for people to choose from? I want some softcore. I want that triple X, hardcore.

Caroline Spiegel: Absolutely. There's a phrase vanilla, or boyfriend energy, boyfriend experience. Those audios tend to be our more gentle, sweet audios. And we have a playlist that's our newbie playlist that is basically just a collection of audios to kind of get you into the genre. They're pretty, I would say they're one pepper on the one-to-five pepper scale. So we do have quite a few, we call them collabs or couple audios that have two voices, a dialogue. I think that's particularly interesting for people who enjoy certain voyeurism or just kind of overhearing a couple interacting. But one of the cool things about the monologue audios is that you're actually in the audio. Right? The listener is a character in the audio. So that's been a big unlock for us, was to realize that's the format that really works for our users. It's fun. You can be whoever the audio tells you you are, and you feel like you're connecting with the creator.

Nora Ali: There's something for everyone.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. Well, there's something for everyone and many ways to access it. And it's--listen. Congratulations on your success. You're growing by leaps and bounds, and you're making the world a little more pleasurable, little sexier.

Caroline Spiegel: Sexier.

Scott Rogowsky: But it's time to get quizzical, from the physical to the quizzical. It's time for Quizness Casual, the Business Casual quiz. And today, Caroline, I'll be asking you some questions about the history of erotica, some minutiae in the industry. But guess what, you have Nora here to help you out.

Nora Ali: We're partners.

Scott Rogowsky: And Nora is well versed in this. She knows. In a previous life, she was a historian on erotic novels.

Nora Ali: There you go, yes.

Scott Rogowsky: So let's get into it. Are you ready, Caroline?

Caroline Spiegel: I'm ready.

Scott Rogowsky: For Qumero Numero Uno, what was the first-ever erotic novel written in English: Misfortunes of Virtue, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Little Birds, or Fanny Hill?

Caroline Spiegel: Nora?

Nora Ali: No clue. Have you heard of any of these, Caroline?

Caroline Spiegel: A or B maybe. Which one is it?

Nora Ali: Yeah. B maybe, Lady whatever, Lady Chatterley's Lover, whatever.

Scott Rogowsky: Lady Chatterley's Lover, that's the only one that I had heard of. But it's in fact, Fanny Hill.

Nora Ali: Fanny Hill.

Scott Rogowsky: Originally named Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure.

Nora Ali: Wow.

Scott Rogowsky: The first erotic novel published in English, written by novelist, John Cleland, in 1748. Yeah. All right, Q two, not sexy. The first adult erotic film depicting explicit sex that was released to a wide audience was called Blue Movie. Who made it: Barbara Rubin, Andy Warhol, Jonas Mekas, or John Waters Jr.?

Nora Ali: I don't know any of these people except Andy Warhol. It's probably a dude.

Scott Rogowsky: Good guess.

Caroline Spiegel: John Waters?

Nora Ali: Let's go with John Waters. Is it John Waters?

Scott Rogowsky: It's going to be not John Waters, who made a lot of crazy films, a lot of sexy films. But Andy Warhol, the artist, who also was a filmmaker, and in 1969 released Blue Movie with a budget of $3,000, micro budget. It was about two main characters, Viva and Louis, spending an afternoon together in an apartment in New York City, and we'll leave it at that, just an afternoon in New York. That sounds nice. That sounds nice.

Caroline Spiegel: Have to watch that, wow.

Scott Rogowsky: These are tough. These are some of the hardest ones. We have one more here. Which of the following is not the name of a well-known female porn site, not the name? So three of these are, one is not: A Four Chambered Heart, Bright Desire, Vanessa, or Lady Cheeky.

Caroline Spiegel: Okay, I know Lady Cheeky is one.

Scott Rogowsky: There you go, cross it off.

Nora Ali: Okay, cross that off.

Scott Rogowsky: So we have A Four Chambered Heart, Bright Desire, or Vanessa.

Caroline Spiegel:I feel like Vanessa is not one.

Nora Ali: Feel like it's not one? Four Chambered Heart, that one sounds weird. Let's go with Vanessa. You felt Vanessa, Caroline, so we're going to go with it. We always default to the guest.

Scott Rogowsky: Vanessa from Queens. Yes, we're closing out with a win here. Vanessa, not a porn site as far as we know. Nice job. Way to close it out, Caroline. You've clearly done your research on these other feminist porn elements. There's one called Bellesa, Dipsea, Spit, a lot of them, Good Vibrations After Dark. Some of these names need some work. But Quinn, by the way, where does the name Quinn come from? How about we end on that?

Caroline Spiegel: Oh, I know, Scott, it's not a good story. It's going to be so anticlimactic. There is a guy I was working with who was in love with a girl named Quinn, and that's it.

Nora Ali: That's a beautiful story.

Scott Rogowsky: Quinn for the win.

Nora Ali: Awesome. Quinn for the win. And Caroline for the win. Caroline, thank you so much for joining us. This was so fun.

Caroline Spiegel: Thank you both. This was so wonderful. Thank you for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: We love hearing from our Business Casual listeners, so please hit us up. We're doing an episode about another sexy topic: Playboy Magazine, and the empire they're trying to regain in a new, more politically correct world. Send us an email about your Playboy memories, or Playgirl, at businesscasual@morningbrew.com. Or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod, that's B-I-Zcasualpod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old-fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from, so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is sensually caressed by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production, sound design, and mixing by Daniel Markus. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Holly Van Leuven is our fact checker. Check those facts. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go for ear candy. And we'd love it if you'd give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.