Nov. 10, 2022

Here's Why Esports is the Future of Entertainment

Gaming has gone beyond your mama’s basement


Esports is a rapidly growing industry that has an impact on your life, even if you’re not a gamer. Nora sits down with FaZe Clan CEO Lee Trink, who makes the case that esports is the future of the entertainment industry. FaZe Clan started as an esports team and has become a multimillion-dollar brand that encompasses entertainment, commerce, and culture. For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out https://purple.com

 

Host: Nora Ali

Producers: Olivia Meade and Raymond Luu   

Video Editor: Sebastian Vega

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at https://businesscasual.fm

Transcript

Nora Ali: For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, bringing you convos with people you know and some you may not know yet, to make business less intimidating. Because money talks, but it does not have to be dull. I'm your host, Nora Ali. Now let's get down to business.

If you're a gamer and you have aspirations to turn it into a career, we have good news for you. And even if you're not a gamer but you exist in the world and consume entertainment in some form, you're going to want to tune in. Our guest is Lee Trink, the CEO and founder of esports and entertainment organization FaZe Clan. And he makes a strong case that gaming is the future of the entertainment business.

FaZe Clan, a publicly traded company, has a market cap of about $260 million at the time of this recording. A former music industry executive, Lee Trink founded FaZe Clan in 2010, and the organization has become one of the world's most prominent and influential gaming organizations, with a global fan base of over 510 million, combined across social platforms.

What began as an esports and gaming organization now encompasses gaming, sports, culture, e-commerce, and entertainment. And this includes original content. And Lee is confident that FaZe Clan is building the entertainment company of the future. Lee shared some surprising audience insights, and told us that he believes gaming culture has largely become youth culture. And if you're a brand, and Gen Z is your target demo and you aren't in gaming, then Lee says you are missing out. To that end, FaZe Clan has formed partnerships with some major companies, including McDonald's, Champion, Nissan, and even the NFL.

We covered a lot in this convo, and Lee offered some great advice for gamers with career ambitions. And if you're one of those people who still doesn't understand why esports is such a big deal, let this be your primer as to why people care so much, and why it's such big business that is probably already trickling into your life. That's next, after the break.

Welcome to Business Casual. I'm looking forward to learning about the business of gaming and esports.

Lee Trink: Well, thanks for having me, Nora. I appreciate it.

Nora Ali: Let's start with a quick little icebreaker for a segment we call OG Occupations. Lee, I know you've had a lot of different careers in your life, but what was your very, very first job you've ever had?

Lee Trink: I mean, first kind of old job was a landscaper or a cook. My first real job was as an assistant DA in the Brooklyn DA's office. So a natural way to start for where I wound up.

Nora Ali: Natural progression.

Lee Trink: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Yes, for sure. We'll get into all of that, all the different things you've done, but let's talk FaZe Clan.

Lee Trink: Sure.

Nora Ali: What exactly are the different lines of businesses, esports and otherwise, that is integral to FaZe Clan?

Lee Trink:  We have a number of different ways that we monetize the brand of the business. Esports is one of them. Content is another. Consumer products is another one. Sponsorship is a big one. And then we have an international footprint where we kind of repeat those activities around the world.

Nora Ali: Are those easily repeatable in different regions? You have a business in the US and it's easy to translate over to an international market?

Lee Trink: I don't know about easy, but I think each market has their own idiosyncrasies. And so you want to make sure that you feel authentic to that country or that region. And we've had some kind of interesting experiences on how to do that in some really kind of foreign territories like Thailand, for example. We did a kind of pilot program in late 2019 to see how would that feel, what would that look like, taking a Western brand and trying to make that authentic in a country that speaks different language, very different culture. And we've actually succeeded quite well there.

Nora Ali: In terms of esports and gaming, are there similar trends as to what is popular around the globe for the games that are the most lucrative, the most popular? Or is it quite different regionally?

Lee Trink: There's a difference regionally. There are some places...like Fortnite is so big or has been so big here in the West and really is not that big in Asia, for example, where a game like PUBG is a big game. You know, a game like Free Fire, which is huge in Brazil and also in parts of Asia, not as popular here in the west. So there is some differences around the globe.

Nora Ali: So regardless of where you're located, for our listeners, for those who are non-gamers, why should they care about esports and competitive gaming?

Lee Trink: I would say esports and competitive gaming is an ever-growing piece of the sports pie. If you think about younger demo, especially Gen Z and kind of the following generations, esports will be a growing piece of what they spend their time watching. And frankly, some of the mainstays like baseball, for example....you know, some of the stats around the average age of some of those other sports are...you'd be floored. I think the last stat that I saw in baseball is the average age, average, is 58 years old. When you look at some of those trends and now tease that out another decade, esports is going to have a massive piece of that sports pie.

Nora Ali: Yeah. And I saw that FaZe Clan has said before that about 80% of the audience is between the ages of 13 and 34. That young demo is a dream demo for most media brands. Is the goal to continue appealing to younger audiences, or are you also trying to create audience stickiness as they age and they have higher spending power over time?

Lee Trink: What we are actually seeing is our audience is getting both older and younger. I think the sweet spot still is in the range that you talk about. I think those are the most active, but what we're seeing is we're not seeing attrition in some of the older demo, and we're certainly seeing kids kind of entering consuming esports and gaming content at a younger age. And so I see that sort of expanding, while that sweet spot is just the most active in terms of consumption of entertainment in general.

Nora Ali: I want you to illustrate a little bit more what that engagement actually looks like from an audience member and why that might be appealing to brands that you work with. I want to quote something you wrote for Rolling Stone. You said, "It's one thing to sit on your couch and cheer at the TV, but being able to actually engage with the community surrounding an event while directly interacting with the personalities playing the game is a new, much more dynamic experience." So in what ways are audiences interacting with gamers and that community?

Lee Trink: So that point, I think, cannot be overstated. I think the fact that this is interactive makes it stickier. And so if you think about a Twitch streamer who will be playing a game while talking to the audience, there's a chat feature that's going on where that audience is interacting and kind of asking questions or making comments that in real time that streamer can comment around. I think the other part of it, and when you think about that same chat feature in esports, obviously there's not going to be interaction from the competitive players, but there's interaction amongst that community of watchers themselves. And so it's just a more vibrant experience.

Sometimes I draw the parallel and I say, if you are a musician—like I'm talking about just you play the guitar for yourself—you're just more apt to be a more avid fan of music because you connect to it on a different level as a static consumer, but also as a participant. If you play football, you're more likely to be more highly engaged in football content. But the reality in those examples, it's a very small fraction of people that actually participate in some way.

In gaming, it's the converse. Essentially, a hundred percent of gamers that are consuming content, they're gamers themselves, they participate. If you look at social accounts from the majority of our fans, they list "gamer" as their identity. And so that just creates a much stronger nexus around your connection to that content and to the brands that create that.

Nora Ali: That is very interesting. And I've seen debates that people have had about when esports will go mainstream, when your regular non-gamer is going to care about esports. It sounds like that maybe will never be the case. Or is there a world where people who don't play the games will also be super interested and engaged in the gaming community?

Lee Trink: I think it's already starting, where there's the curiosity factor. I think part of the challenge is the games are complicated. And so if you don't play, it's a little harder to understand what's going on. But frankly, I think that that's an opportunity for the industry to do a better job in educating people of how to watch a game, what matters, and to have them connected and do the storytelling.

I think, frankly, the industry as a whole hasn't done enough around the storytelling around why you should care. I think other more mature sports categories do a great job of, like, why does this game matter? What's the history around these two competitors and why you should tune in and what's the drama around it? Ultimately, it's storytelling and it's the drama of sport.

Nora Ali: Yeah. And on the storytelling note, I wonder what is sort of the state of celebritydom when it comes to esports? Because there's like the couple known people that everyone knows their name, like Ninja, for example, because he's been on covers of magazines. And I'm just curious, are we seeing these known entities within the gaming world also infiltrate other industries, mainstream entertainment?

Lee Trink: I would say to a lesser degree the esports athletes, but to a much greater degree the content creators. I will tell you, our content creators, they can't go to a mall. I mean honestly, it's a security risk. The people like FaZe Rug, people like FaZe Banks or FaZe Swagg, if they were to go to a theme park, if they were to go to Disneyland, it's a security risk for everyone.

Nora Ali: Wow.

Lee Trink: They are as famous as the most people that you feel and older people feel are famous. Frankly, for the Gen Z and the generations after, now it's maybe even outmoded, but I used to say, "Put Brad Pitt in the corner of a room and put FaZe Rug in another corner and throw in a hundred people that are under 20 years old, and they won't know who Brad Pitt is, for the most part. And they will swarm FaZe Rug."

And I think that that is underappreciated. I mean, look, even your reaction, right, it seems beyond the pale, but it is. I will tell you, we have some of our guys that need daily security because they cannot go to a place without that happening. And look, I come from the traditional entertainment space. I was in music for the majority of my career, working with huge talent, and it's the same. It's not a little bit different, it is absolutely the same. The fandom around it, the rabidity around that fandom is absolutely on par with the biggest talent and celebrities I've ever worked with.

Nora Ali: Let's take a very quick break. More with Lee when we come back.

You started touching on your previous career in the music industry. So before you became the CEO of FaZe Clan, you worked as the, or you served as the president of EMI's Capitol Music Group. This includes companies like Virgin Records, which many people are familiar with. You helped launch Katy Perry's career, for example, which is super cool. And then you shifted to gaming. Have you seen that that's a normal transition because of the overlaps of managing musicians and the world of music and entertainment? There's a lot of overlap, it seems, with gaming.

Lee Trink: I want to take a little responsibility for starting that trend. I had a management company where I was managing big artists, and I initially signed FaZe Clan as a client. What I ended up learning over the two years in that configuration and my relationship with FaZe Clan, A, I was not prepared for what I was going to learn. It was different than my preconceived notions. It was culture. FaZe Clan was moving culture in a way that, to me, was analogous to how music moves culture. And I had never heard about that. No one was talking about it. And so I felt like I knew a secret. I kind of understood what to do with FaZe Clan, I mean, in some regards or many regards, because I treated FaZe Clan as almost like a burgeoning artist. And expanding that audience, making them well-known, the physics of it, so to speak, were the same as music.

As a result, I've recruited many, many ex-music executives to come to FaZe. They do exceptionally well. I think that the music industry gives you the right toolkit to understand a brand like FaZe Clan, a culturally significant, cultural lightning rod. And so the parallels are, they're kind of endless. And so as a result, music people gravitate to this area if they understand, if they have that "aha" moment that, okay, yes, there's the competitive side of esports, but actually, the significance of gaming overall is, gaming culture has largely become youth culture, and at scale. And so as a result, music executives thrive and flourish in this industry.

Nora Ali: That's really interesting. You said gaming culture has become a youth culture at scale. Do you feel like brands understand the power of gaming? Because you've inked a lot of great deals: McDonald's, Champion, Nissan, even the NFL, but are brands coming proactively to you? Do they get it?

Lee Trink: Thankfully, the world is different now than it was even in 2019. I would say in 2019, there were very few brands that were getting the message. Here in 2022, I would say if kind of Gen Z is a target demo and you're not in gaming, you are totally failing. And I think that brands actually are aware of that.

That being said, I think brands are still wrapping their arms around how to work with gaming and gaming brands. Frankly, I don't think we are being properly compensated for what we bring to brands. And I think that's just a period in time. I think sometimes what I'll reference is when digital advertising started, it was the small part of marketing spend and frankly, people were underpaying because it was new and everyone was much more comfortable deploying capital in things like broadcast, because they'd been doing it for decades and they understood it.

And so when things migrated digitally, they didn't understand it, which meant it was hard to charge the real value. Fast forward to where we are now: Digital is the majority of ad spend. Brands pay very well for the access that digital and the ability to kind of slice into a segment...like, now, that's a mature industry. We're going to be on the same trajectory with gaming. We're just in the middle of it. We haven't kind of landed at that steady state where brands really understand how to collaborate with a gaming brand like FaZe Clan, and the pricing is what it should be for the value.

Nora Ali: Let's say you're in a room with a marketing executive at a brand who doesn't quite get it, the value of partnering with the FaZe Clan. Explain what you do bring to the table. What do you bring to the brand, whether it's an engaged audience or otherwise?

Lee Trink: I think you touch on one of the most important parts there. We have a hyper-engaged audience. We have what I'll refer to sometimes as an always-on relationship with that audience. Social media and the connectivity around social media allows us in real time to connect with our audience, and for our audience to respond to us. And that's just a different way to be connected and to be hyper-connected to your audience. There's the affinity that a brand like FaZe Clan brings to other brands that are, again, tantamount to the affinity of any type of celebrity or any type of significant IP brand.

Nora Ali: Can you walk me through specifically what a particular brand partnership has looked like? Maybe one of your favorite ones and how you worked with them?

Lee Trink: I'll give you an example of where I thought, wow, this is a brand that really gets how to tap into our community. We have a partnership with McDonald's. And we did a stunt with our audience where they could be a FaZe Clan member for a day. And they just had to submit something and tag it and then we gave them kind of a contract for one day. We kind of leaned it into it. And McDonald's, on their own, took advantage of that opportunity of kind of hyper-engagement of our community, and they changed their social handle to FaZe McDonald's.

It's so perfect as like a nod to our community, a respect to our community, and frankly, to FaZe Clan. And what was amazing to me is that's like the digital version of changing the buildings to be called FaZe McDonald's. And that really resonated with our audience. So I think that's a great example of when a brand really understands that this is not about replicating old brand ideas and old brand strategies; this is about really leaning into what matters to this community, how brands could show up in an authentic way. And that was really a perfect example.

Nora Ali: So one lucky person got to be a FaZe Clan member for a day?

Lee Trink: No, no, we allowed everybody. We basically allowed every fan who wanted to. We had a one-day contract that they could sign and they could all be considered FaZe Clan members for a day. So it was really anybody.

Nora Ali: What did they get to do as a member?

Lee Trink: They didn't get to go sit in my office, but really, they got to represent themselves as a FaZe member, which matters to our audience. I mean, frankly, when I look at a lot of our fans and community, they're already doing that naturally. They're putting FaZe in their bios, they're putting FaZe in their names. Being a member of FaZe Clan has become the most kind of aspirational goal in gaming. It's the pinnacle of achievement as a gamer. And so you have a lot of fans that are already projecting that and already want FaZe in their name, even if it's an unofficial capacity. This one was allowing them an official capacity; that's the kind of relationship we have with our fans.

Nora Ali: All right, one more quick break. More with Lee when we return.

So recently, FaZe Clan announced that it'll be joining the metaverse through The Sandbox, and that's a virtual world where players can build, own, monetize their gaming experiences on the Ethereum blockchain. How is that going to work exactly?

Lee Trink: We're building an environment where fans can participate with us, they can show up with us digitally, they can show up with each other and commune there. We're still building out what that program looks like. We're in the early stages of it. But if you think about...even activity today, a lot of people think about metaverse as some door which you'll be able to open and walk into in the future. And how I really look at it is, the metaverse is actually a hallway that we're already in. And what I mean by that is, certainly a younger demo, but even an older demo is already spending a significant amount of time digitally. And whether that's looking at Instagram, chatting with people on Facebook, posting videos on YouTube, that is already a metaverse experience. And what I would say is, let's talk about Instagram further. People are representing their digital persona on Instagram, which I think we all are aware of and even maybe lament sometimes, that there is a difference between what people have curated as their digital persona on Instagram versus what their real life is.

And that is already kind of a metaverse experience, where you're spending time digitally and there starts to be a delta between maybe even who you are IRL, in the parlance of our world "in real life," versus who you are digitally. And if you think about a more immersive environment as technology unlocks the ability to feel really immersed, not looking at photos on a static screen, but something that feels much more immersive where you as an avatar could be moving around, that's going to continue. And I think what's exciting for FaZe Clan in gaming is the majority of how people talk about the metaverse environment is that gaming is going to be foundational, which makes perfect sense.

And I actually saw something yesterday, a post of somebody talking about the metaverse, where the reason gaming will be foundational, not only are people describing it that, but gaming creates a reason to be in the metaverse. If you're just kind of going in to look, walk around as an avatar, there needs to be a reason why that becomes sticky. Why are you going the second time, the 10th time, the 50th time, the hundredth time? And so there are metaverse environments, like Fortnite is a metaverse environment, Roblox is a metaverse environment. They're just Web 2.0. And so the real big moment is when we will take environments that are really sticky, like a metaverse, like a Fortnite or a Roblox, and put those within a Web3 environment. That's when things will get really exciting.

Nora Ali: I want to switch over a little bit to the player perspective. So for a young person who is considering making esports and gaming their career, what advice do you have to make sure it's a sustainable career, too?

Lee Trink: Let's talk about the one that people don't talk about a lot, which are the people that make these brands and these companies go around, which are the people behind the cameras. And I think what's exciting is there wasn't a career even a couple of years ago for more than a handful of people. And now, this is an exploding space. This is the future of the entertainment business. I am very fixated on the fact that we will be taking more and more market share from the incumbent entertainment players. And as a result, the executives and the people that work behind the scenes, they will be growing opportunities. And it's hard. Because it's a new industry, there's not a lot of easy on-ramps for it. The good news is, it's a vibrant community. And so what I would say is be connected to the community. Take your shots. I mean, frankly, I get DMs all the time about people who want to work at FaZe. And sometimes, depending on what they say, I actually will answer and give them an email to send some information, because frankly, we need more people that are hyper-engaged that understand this place. But in the future, I think there'll be greater resources to help cultivate the people that are behind the scenes. But you gotta be a participant, you gotta be part of the community, and you have to be vocal.

Nora Ali: So what makes a good DM if you're trying to shoot your shot for a job or for your career? Because it's not just in esports and gaming, obviously; I think this is relevant to a lot of different people.

Lee Trink: I would say the short ones don't do it. It also can't be like War and Peace. So you want [inaudible]. But if somebody can describe why they're a good fit, what they've done, and frankly, if somebody piques my curiosity in what they've written and said, "Here's who I am, here's what I'm passionate about. Here's what I'm good at and here's what I've done." And I'll look at their page to get a sense of, okay, is this somebody that works, or is this somebody that just talks?

And if all of a sudden you marry what you've said with your page...I mean, honestly, I looked at one last night. I looked at somebody who was asking about being a video editor, and I thought, okay, let me take a peek. Happened to be not that many videos, but piqued my interest enough that I'm going to forward it to my content team to see if, "Hey, is this somebody you guys want to take a look at?" And so you gotta be able to show your goods in the ways we are connected, right? So that page, for them, was almost kind of like different iteration of their LinkedIn.

Nora Ali: Yeah, I mean for our listeners, if you want to work at FaZe Clan, Lee's just given a template...

Lee Trink: Oh, boy, now I'm getting a lot of DMs.

Nora Ali: ...of how to DM him.

Lee Trink: Okay.

Nora Ali: Sorry.

Lee Trink: @LeeTrink in all of my platforms.

Nora Ali: It's very nice of you. So there are now official high school programs for aspiring gamers. Dozens of US colleges and universities are even offering scholarships for gamers. Are you optimistic that there is a lot of room to flourish even from an early age getting that support? Is there a lot of room for growth because of these official programs that have been popping up?

Lee Trink: I'm going to say it this way. This is a huge part of the future of the entertainment business. And I actually think I said this yesterday. We are not looking at other gaming orgs and other creators as our competitors. FaZe Clan is actually very focused, especially after we've gone public, in the concept of bringing everybody along. And so the competitors, to me, I look at NBCUniversal as our competitors. Viacom is our competitors. The old guard that is not doing enough to position themselves properly to capitalize on the trends of younger audiences—that's FaZe Clan's opportunity.

Succinctly said, I think we're building the entertainment company of the future. And as a result, everybody that wants to participate, it's a different set of skills. It's a different set of knowledge that will give people an ability to participate. And the fact that there are programs in high schools and college, like, thank you. I would say thank you because it's hard to find people that really understand the space and can work. And it's really just because we haven't built those systems and the infrastructure in order to take somebody's passion, put them on a career path, and give us access and a road to find them and bring them into our organization.

Nora Ali: Yeah. For an industry that's burgeoning like this one, if you can specialize at an early age and have that expertise, then you're going to be super valuable in this industry. So I think that's great. Well, Lee, before we let you go, this final segment is called This or That: Video Game Edition. We'll include both esports game and some old school games. So here we go. Number one, starting with some of the highest-earning esports games. So This or That, Dota 2 or Fortnite? Both Battle Arena games.

Lee Trink: Fortnite.

Nora Ali: Yeah. Why? It was very easy for you, I have to say.

Lee Trink: I mean, that's part of our culture. I mean we're not in Dota 2. It's not necessarily our vibe. I mean, look, I have immense respect for the Dota 2 community. We've decided not to participate and we're in deep in Fortnite. And Fortnite has been actually a big part of our growth. Honestly, we grew, the entire industry grew and accelerated when Fortnite really, really blew up in 2018.

Nora Ali: Yeah. How do you decide which games not to participate in with FaZe Clan?

Lee Trink: Even the consideration has gone through evolution with FaZe. I think when we were building our brand identity, we were much more tight around what games really represented us authentically. I think now as we've expanded to this big global powerhouse brand, I think we've opened the aperture around what that is. But I think it's, what games have a vibrant community? What feels like we are connected to their ethos? What is financially the right game to get into? Some games are franchise games that require massive checks up front. Some are really just the cost of assembling the team. And so we're very, very deliberate about those choices.

And we also don't feel like we need to be first in. I think that we have the ability to, sometimes with a new game and a new esport, to take a wait and see approach if it's going to be around. Because sometimes there's high aspirations and the community just is not sticky enough. And so sometimes we'll take a wait and see approach to it as well.

Nora Ali: Even though you're not in Dota 2, just a fun fact for our listeners. The largest prize pool ever, I think, was for their International 10 tournament. So it was a prize pool of over $40 million. Okay, next one. This or That. These are two other very high-earning esports games. I think I know the answer to this one. This or that: Call of Duty or PUBG?

Lee Trink: Tough choice because we're in both, but it's gotta be Call of Duty. Call of Duty is a core, it's a foundational part of the FaZe Clan history. We started as a Call of Duty trick shot squad, and so it's got to be COD.

Nora Ali: A trick shot squad?

Lee Trink:  Yeah.

Nora Ali: What does that mean?

Lee Trink: So kind of effectuating the game with panache. So jumping off a building, doing a 520 spin, and shooting your opponent on the way down.

Gamers: Oh my gosh. Holy shit. Oh my god.

Lee Trink: Think about skateboarding tricks and shooting videos around that, right? This is, think about Dogtown and skating. That's what FaZe Clan started as, a group of kids that were really good at the game, but played it with a different type of flair. Or think about Harlem Globetrotters, the way they played basketball. That's how FaZe Clan played Call of Duty. We would post those clips and that's how it started.

Nora Ali: I love that. Okay. Third pairing for you. This or that. These are two old-school games, so Super Mario Bros. or Duck Hunt?

Lee Trink: I'm going to have to go with my man Mario on this.

Nora Ali: Yeah?

Lee Trink: Yeah.

Nora Ali: What, were you good?

Lee Trink: Oh, I don't know that I was good. I don't think I've ever been good at any of them. And really, I'm ham-fisted when it comes to that, but I would say Super Mario. I mean, come on, they're still around, still kicking, many iterations. Still big. Now in the Super Smash world, but gotta go with my man Mario.

Nora Ali: All right, well, I'm gonna disagree. I loved Duck Hunt so much. It was so simple.

Lee Trink: Yeah.

Nora Ali: Just aim...

Lee Trink: When life was simpler.

Nora Ali: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, last one for you, Lee.

Lee Trink: Yeah.

Nora Ali: These are '90s desktop games. This or That: Tetris or Minesweeper?

Lee Trink: Ooh, I'm gonna go Tetris. That's like, some good kind of just semi...almost like dial down your brain, just zone out into the Tetris world. By the way, it's kind of a metaverse experience too, right? You like live in this little digital world and getting a little respite from real life. So I'm going Tetris.

Nora Ali: Okay. I agree. Tetris. It is more Zen than Minesweeper, which I find wildly stressful. Minesweeper's very stressful. I also didn't realize how it worked when I was a kid, so I would just randomly click the buttons and I'm like, "Oh, a bomb. Okay." I thought that was a game of chance. I had no idea. Awesome. Well, Lee, we will leave things there. This has been such a pleasure.

Lee Trink: Okay.

Nora Ali: Thank you for joining us on Business Casual.

Lee Trink: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Nora Ali: This is Business Casual and I'm Nora Ali. You can follow me on Twitter at NoraKAli. That's Nora, the letter K, Ali. And I would love to hear from you if you have ideas for episodes, comments and thoughts on episodes you loved, fun segment ideas, just shoot me a DM and I will do my very best to respond. You can also reach the BC team by emailing businesscasual@morningbrew.com, or call us. That number is (862) 295-1135. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And if you like the show, please leave a rating and a review. It really, really helps us.

And guess what? We are on YouTube. So if you've ever wondered what I look like, what our guests look like, or what anything else looks like, full episodes are available on our very own YouTube channel. That's Business Casual with Nora Ali. Again, Business Casual with Nora Ali on YouTube. Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop, Olivia Meade, and Raymond Luu. Additional production, sound design and mixing by Daniel Markus. Kate Brandt is our fact checker, and AB Silver is our senior booking producer. Sebastian Vega edits our videos. Our VP of multimedia is Sarah Singer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali. Keep it business, and keep it casual.