Dec. 20, 2021

Momofuku Intern to CEO: Growing a Food Empire

And keeps it “super intentional and super delicious”

Pull up a chair at the Noodle Bar with Nora and Scott as they chat with Momofuku CEO Marguerite Zabar Mariscal about running a restaurant empire with David Chang at age 31, just 10 years after joining Momofuku as an intern in 2011.


Nora Ali: You may be familiar with Momofuku thanks to their iconic and Instagramable three-tier birthday cake, or maybe from their flagship ramen restaurant, Momofuku Noodle Bar. But today, Chef David Chang's culinary brand has expanded into an empire with 10 different restaurants, multi-city chains, a media production unit, and a growing line of sauces and seasonings. Today, we're joined by Marguerite Zabar Mariscal, who was named the CEO of Momofuku at age 29 in 2019, just eight years after joining the company as an intern in 2011. Marguerite, whose great-grandparents founded gourmet food emporium Zabar's, stopped by to talk about her experience growing up in the food industry, how she helped David Chang realize his vision over the years, and her leadership style as Momofuku continues to scale. From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with some of the biggest names in business, asking them the questions you wish you could ask. I'm your host, Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm your other host, Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you stories of how business shapes our lives, this is so good, today and into the future.

Nora Ali: What you eating?

Scott Rogowsky: I'm eating Momofuku. Now, let's get down to business.

Nora Ali: Okay. Scott, you and I are both very big fans of Momofuku.

Scott Rogowsky: I fucks with the Fuku. Yeah.

Nora Ali: Do you have a favorite food item from their brands?

Scott Rogowsky: I mean, it's got to be their spicy chicken sandwich.

Nora Ali: Oh my gosh.

Scott Rogowsky: Section 119 at MSG and Citi Field and all my favorite sporting venues. Of course, we're talking Momofuku, we're talking Milk Bar because they're all part of the same conglomerate there. The Cereal Milk, Ice Cream Cereal Milk, it tastes like-

Nora Ali: Cornflakes.

Scott Rogowsky: ...a bowl of cornflakes. The milk left over after the bowl of cornflakes, what a flavor, and I mean the cookies, the truffles, my God. The first time I had one of those birthday cake truffles-

Nora Ali: It's life-changing.

Scott Rogowsky:...that is just...Melts in your mouth.

Nora Ali: Have you had the actual birthday cake too in addition to the birthday cake truffles?

Scott Rogowsky: The birthday cake? Sure. Yeah.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh, Nora.

Nora Ali: Yes.

Scott Rogowsky: You broke some news to me.

Nora Ali: I did?

Scott Rogowsky: They changed the name of Crack Pie.

Nora Ali: Yeah. They did. Yeah. It's now called Milk Bar Pie because Crack Pie for understandable reasons is not a great name for a pie.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. I always felt strange around the Crack Pie. We didn't ask our guest, Marguerite, about the Crack Pie decision.

Nora Ali: People, when they ask me what's the best bite you've ever had in your life, I will often point to that pie. I actually finished one of those a couple weeks ago with my parents and my mom said to me, she said, "I don't like pie, but I could eat this every single day." Because it's butter and sugar in a pie crust. How can you go wrong? And a little bit of vanilla.

Scott Rogowsky: It's like crack. Oh wait, no, we can't say that anymore. The pie formally known as Crack.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: No, so we're big fans of this brand and this food and I'm going to get there tonight as it turns out.

Nora Ali: Good.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm going to go. Hopefully if Marguerite responds to my email, I will be eating at Noodle Bar. Before I eat at Noodle Bar, let's talk to Marguerite about it on Business Casual.

Nora Ali: Here's our conversation with Marguerite Zabar Mariscal.

Nora Ali: We're big fans of Momofuku here, Marguerite.

Scott Rogowsky: Big fans.

Nora Ali: I got to say.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm sure you get that a lot. Marguerite, your great-grandparents, Louis and Lillian Zabar, founded Zabar's, the iconic gourmet supermarket to the stars of the Upper West Side, including Gil Faizon and George St. Geegland. How did growing up as part of this Zabar food dynasty influence you, shape your love of food in the industry? I assume there was some connection there.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know I wanted to go into restaurants. It's funny. My grandpa, I think, spent most of his time telling everyone not to go into the hospitality industry. You work on holidays, it's very low margin, and I think he was trying to get everyone to go out and do something else, but I think it was just part of our every day. We talk about food constantly and we talk about also the business of food constantly, so I think that somehow got ingrained. Then, after I graduated from college, I took an internship at Momofuku, which I thought would be a brief stint. I've been there for 10 plus years, so I'm now firmly in the food business once again.

Nora Ali: What was it about the food industry that made you want to go into it, even though you were warned against it growing up?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I think that when I started working at Momofuku, I didn't even really see it as a restaurant group. At that point, there was a few restaurants. They had a couple in Manhattan and then they were literally just opening a restaurant in Sydney, Australia, which was their first restaurant outside of Manhattan. Dave, I think, did a lot around food and what it means culturally, and things like battling the perception of MSG and Chinese restaurant syndrome and all of that. I think I really saw it as a brand more than it was let's say a restaurant group, which I was super, super drawn to. I just felt like it was the epicenter of what was happening in food at the time.

Scott Rogowsky: I mean, look, your grandpa was not wrong.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: No. No.

Scott Rogowsky: The margins are tough and now you're experiencing it firsthand running this restaurant group. Are there some lessons that you took from your family that you're now incorporating into your leadership?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting about Zabar's is, the reputation is definitely outsized for the size of the store. There's one location, that's it, but I think they've done a really good job of exploring the brand outside of the four walls of its space. Mail order's a massive, massive business. It started out with the catalog and I think they've just, whether it's the totes, the hats, it's really become bigger than just what I think it started as. And so, I think especially even pre-pandemic, but definitely in it, I think every restaurant group store, et cetera, is trying to do the same thing, which is, how do we expand beyond our physical footprint and find ways to monetize, to engage outside of the restaurants, especially when you weren't physically able to go in them? I think it's definitely something that we as a restaurant group latched onto as well.

Scott Rogowsky: For those of our listeners who aren't familiar with Momofuku or the Momofuku brand or that voice, how would you describe it as it was when you joined, how it's evolved to where it is today? It sounds from how you're talking about it, it was very heavily influenced by, I guess David Chang's just own persona and personality. A little bit sarcastic, a little bit DIY punk, and it's grown up a little bit but am I getting it right or how would you do it?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar:

Yeah, I think it's like for any young brand or as you're saying startups, it's like it was scrappy and everything was moving quickly. I think also a lot of what Dave did was, really intentionally against the grain, to prove a point. Like Ko, which was our two-Michelin star restaurant, it started out 12 seats. You can only book it through a reservation system we built. There are no tablecloths, no servers. It was very much the chefs serving you and it was intentionally that fine dining doesn't have to be defined by white tablecloths, stuffy service. Basically, everything shows up through the food and that's the priority. That was really intentional, but I think we proved that point and I think shifted people's expectations. So then as we grow, it's going back to these basics. It's just constant tweaking I would say of, how do you keep the mission? The mission, I guess, if people haven't been to the restaurants, we always use this example: How do you take the humblest meal, like a bowl of soup, and basically apply three-Michelin star intensity to the quality of the ingredients, to how it's prepared, and just make it the best version it can be? It doesn't have to be fancy. It just has to be super intentional and super delicious. We apply that, whether it's a Michelin-star meal or a burger we have at this place, Moon Palace, it doesn't matter what you're paying. There has to be value and there has to be real intent to what the food is, but everything else can flex from there, which is challenging but I think also what makes it super fun.

Nora Ali: We hear about that a lot from entrepreneurs where it's so important to get the vision, the mission, the value prop right. But what does that look like when you're doing it for a restaurant?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Yeah, and I think what's so fascinating is, I'm not a founder. It's like, I came into this thing and it had this voice, but I think the thing that was also just super exciting and why I've been at this company for 10 years is, there's who we are and what we sound like, but also, what do we want to stop and start doing? A lot of the conversations were around, we have super loud music at our restaurants and it's like, is that because it's intentional or does our sound system just suck? It's like, what are the things that we're doing because it's important to the brand? What are the things that are just a result of the way that we organically grew? Then, making sure that we're not just documenting the way we did do things but evolving. The best example I can give you that is, we opened a Noodle Bar in Toronto and everyone in Canada is very nice. We sent our East Village team up to train everyone up in Toronto. Basically after two days of being open, everyone's like, "Why is everyone so mean?" We were like, "Oh, okay, got it. Got it. Let's not copy and paste this, let's figure out, what does this look like in this new environment?" And so, it was a very living and breathing document I would say, which is, I think what has allowed us over the past 10 years to not stay stuck in where we came from, but continue to evolve into new industries, new types of restaurants, quick service, fine dining. Everything can play because as long as we're able to be flexible about what does that look like for us as a company.

Nora Ali: We are going to take a very quick break, but when we come back, we'll discuss Marguerite's relationship with Momofuku's founder, David Chang, when we come back.

Nora Ali: We've been talking about David Chang, obviously the founder of Momofuku, but I would posit that a lot of his success came from trusting you very early on. In a New York Times article, he described you as, "the only person I've ever felt comfortable giving complete carte blanche to in terms of what Momofuku looks like and what it should be." Wow. Those are some powerful words. How did you gain that trust with David and how did that trust help you become more confident in your role as CEO?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar:I really think Dave is someone who, basically he just wants to see someone care as much as he does. If he sees that, then he's like, "All right, you got it." I think for whatever reason, I felt very early on that I cared so much about this company and its employees and where it could go. I think that trust allows us to change course and not just replicate what we have been doing. I think by the fact that I started as an intern was, in the thick of it with the social media, with building out these new spaces, I think I just had such a firsthand look at what was happening, what were the problems, where was the ability to expand, which I think with Dave collectively, we were able to then action together and figure out a future for the company.

Nora Ali: I love that you cared so much right away and David recognized that in you. Is that how you operate in anything you do? Or was there something about Momofuku that made you say, "You know what? This is special. I need to care a lot about this"?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I say this all the time and this I think applies to the vast, vast majority of people that work at this company at every level is, I think everyone is interested in the best result possible. That's not excellence above everything. I think it's really about every person just really cares, fundamentally cares. There's this old Nike adage that's like, your job's not done until the job is done. I think that in restaurants that's always been true. It's like, if you're in the front of house and there's dishes and if you picked up in the kitchen, you go back. If someone's stationed, they're going down in flames, someone comes over to help them. The hospitality industry in general is just so unbelievably collaborative. I think Dave came from a family business. I came from a family business. I think in a lot of ways I'm conditioned to care too much because it's not just something you clock out at the end of the day, it's something you think about constantly. I think for better or worse, I picked that up and then carried it over to Momofuku when I started.

Scott Rogowsky: I have to imagine that there is an element of awareness here about what you do and the quality of the food you put out there, and that adds to this spirit of caring. It's delicious. It's Michelin-starred. It's all of that. There's a cachet there that I assume is imbued in the spirit of the employees.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Yeah. I think that, but I would say, I think it's that combo-ed with each space really is unique. Like we have three Noodle Bars and each of them has their own pulse, their own chef. They're dictating what's happening on a day-to-day basis on a lot of decisions. I think that, that combo, if you have this overarching Momo ethos, quality standards, but then you also have people with boots on the ground every day where they feel, I hope this to be true, ownership over this restaurant, over the end product, what they're putting out and I think that to us is endlessly important.

Nora Ali: As you scale and open up more and more restaurants, I thought it was interesting, you said each Noodle Bar even has its own pulse. I imagine there's thousands of decisions, microdecisions even that you have to make. Whether it's what kind of cutlery we have, the number of fryers, the color of paint on the walls, all these things, do you have any guiding philosophies in making these kinds of decisions? Are you a big delegator? How do you parse through having to decide on so many things as you guys scale?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Totally. I think what we try to do is basically, this is the magic that I'm not saying we have, but I think if people can figure this out, it's the magic. It's like, what benefits from being systematized and what doesn't? It's like, is there a benefit for there being three different forks? Probably not. And so, okay, what can we create systems for, create standards for that actually makes everyone's lives easier because they don't have to think about it? Then, how do you carve out that sandbox where creativity, where individual representation matters? For example, at Noodle Bars, they all have a specials board and that's where the team on the ground really puts their impact and puts up dishes. At Columbus Circle we have a vertical spit at that Noodle Bar because it's near Midtown and there's a whole culture around vertical spits, which is fascinating. That's always what we try to do, is really find, where is that percentage of individuality that adds value and when does that create chaos? I think Momofuku, when it's going well, is the right balance of order and chaos that's created there.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm an abashed fan of the brand and I'm just a big fan of food in general, so I notice things in the supermarkets. Like, oh, now there are Milk Bar Cookies that you can buy in the cookie aisle, which is very dangerous, Marguerite. This is a bad idea. Pull this from shelves immediately. You're going to kill us all. The Fuku crispy chicken sandwich is at Citi Field and I think MSG, right?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Yeah. Barclays.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. I mean, all these things I'm sitting there going, "Oh wow, look how they're expanding." Are these things specifically that you were helming?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I think what we've been trying to do in the past is basically create these businesses. And so, operating a bakery like Milk Bar is very different than sit-down, brick-and-mortar restaurants like we were doing and concessions, totally different business model than what we are doing. And so, Dave created Fuku really as this, what is something that actually would work at MSG and actually be better at MSG than if you were to go into a brick and mortar location? Having the chicken sandwich sit in the steamed bun and all these things were thought about it's like, how do you make something that actually gets better with time, once these businesses get to a place where they're mature enough to have their own teams, because they're such different models. Like consumer packaged good, it's totally different business model than restaurants. And so, we basically get these businesses to a place where we can almost set them on their own to be successful and spin them out. The holding company, in some ways with all the restaurants is almost like we view it as a bit of an incubator that then creates these brands that then can go out and be successful. All of those things are now handled by separate teams. What we're focusing on right now is the next thing that we're hoping to make into its own standalone business is, these home cooking products that we have like noodles in Target. Nationally, we have Chili Crunch, which is like a spicy chili oil that we've been selling in Whole Foods and indirect to consumer for the past year. That's our next attempt at taking on a different industry and seeing if we can figure out how it works. Something about these home cooking products that I love is that, it's not a can of soup with the chef's face on it that doesn't taste anything like you would get at your restaurant. Everything we're making is something that we're actually using in our restaurants, even these dried noodles that we're doing at Noodle Bar in East Village, they're selling them every night. And so, the idea is that, we want to close the gap between what you get in a restaurant and what you can make at home. Basically utilize our chefs to R&D, do recipes, and then teach you how to make this at home. And so, I think a lot of maybe Chick-fil-A is doing that with their sauces, where there's packaging what they actually sell. But I don't know if I've seen a higher-end restaurant group that is attempting to really close that gap and have it be of that caliber.

Scott Rogowsky: From our kitchen to yours.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Exactly.

Nora Ali: Well, I'm super interested in these home cooking products and your direct to consumer business generally. So let's take another quick break, but when we come back, we'll talk more about that and Marguerite's leadership as CEO of Momofuku. Marguerite, I understand that you pushed Momofuku to shift a minimum of 50% of revenue to come from areas outside of traditional restaurants. We started touching on the direct-to-consumer business, these home products. Is this shift a result of some of the risks you saw during the pandemic of relying so heavily on dine-in revenue? Or is this something that you had been planning for some time?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Definitely planning for some time. The pandemic really just revealed what was already true about the hospitality and restaurant industry was that, what my grandpa's been telling me for my entire life, it's a really, really hard business. Food prices have gone up, rent's going up, utilities, basically everything that makes operating the business more difficult. I think we've perceived a cap to what people are willing to pay for food, at least in a restaurant environment. And so, we were thinking of, how can we create a diversified business plan, something that's also symbiotic where these different pieces can work together? The fact that I'm obsessed with is that of Dave and Momofuku's followers on social media, which is over two million people, 90% don't live in cities in which we operate restaurants. There's always been this outsized understanding of the brand, interest in the brand, but we never had any way of reaching these people or of engaging with them outside of you visit LA one time and you go. We were like, how can we engage with these potential customers and really share what makes Momofuku Momofuku with a much broader audience? We're just never going to have a gazillion restaurants across the United States, it's just not our style. And so for us, these home cooking products and then the kind of education that recipes, et cetera, that come with them is our way of growing without expanding physical presence.

Scott Rogowsky: You've been at this company for 10 years now, started in 2011. In 2016, a key thing happened, the restaurant group took on some private investment capital, RSE Ventures. You were there, you saw the before and after of that. How has that changed things? I mean, obviously there's influx of cash so now there's more money to go and execute on some of these expansion plans. Were there changes in the culture? Were there some more pressures added to the mix there? Did you personally experience any differences in how you've approached work before and after the private capital came in?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I think off the bat, growth 1,000% and I think everyone wanted growth because I think in a lot of ways, growth is how you provide for employees. The bigger you get, the more you can start offering things like 401k(s), the more you can start offering better benefits. And so, I think the idea of growth was super, super appealing, but I would say in my own personal opinion, there was too much growth too quickly. I think people maybe wanted us to be a company that stamps out a gazillion of the same concepts, and for better or worse we're not capable of doing it. It's like, "Okay. Yeah, we'll open another Noodle Bar," and they're like, "But what if it actually had tabletop grills?" It's like every place we opened somehow changed into something that we felt was more representative of where it was opening and what it was. And so, I think that's really when we had the idea of, well, maybe growth doesn't have to be that. We need to grow, we need to expand. We need to engage with a wider audience, but maybe that audience is via products. Maybe that audience is via national shipping. Maybe that audience is cooking classes, which we did during the pandemic. There are so many ways that you can grow that don't necessarily mean doubling down on what you're already doing. Or even concepts like Peach Mart, which is this concept we made, which was based off of Japanese convenience stores like Lawsons, which are unbelievable and have amazing food. We had one of those in Hudson Yards that closed during the pandemic and we're saying to ourselves like, "Well maybe actually in 2021, a physical location's not actually the best way of doing that business." Having it be delivered to you directly, having it be something that exists in a different form, might actually be the best version of that. We're not short on ideas. I think it's more so, how do you take what we have and leverage that in a more scalable way?

Scott Rogowsky: We've covered both The Great Resignation on this podcast, the massive people quitting their jobs, and the reshuffling of the labor market. We've also covered restaurants in the pandemic. We spoke to Khushbu Shah from Food and Wine Magazine. So a lot of factors here that don't portend so well for businesses like yours, but did you see people quitting from your company in this great resignation? I assume there were some difficult choices you had to make during the pandemic with the closures. How are you recovering from all this? How did you navigate all that?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Sure. I have no rosy thoughts about everything being okay. I think we're still very much in it. I think anyone who thinks they're out of it is wrong. It's like we're dealing with so many of those same factors and so much of the same fear of, how are things going to be different a month from now than they are today? I would say, we definitely experienced the highs and lows of 1,000%. We were early, we closed all of our restaurants prior to the mandates from the cities, just because we didn't know what we didn't know. We weren't willing to take the chance, so we were very proactive about shutting everything down, which unfortunately had results of laying off a good number of employees, as well as retaining a lot of employees and finding ways, which was a lot of the impetus to, how do we keep going? How do we find these alternate paths to keep these people on board? I think today, we're dealing with the same labor shortages, I think a lot of people are. For us, the way that I'm trying to deal with it, and I'm not saying it's worked yet, I think it's really making an investment in the future and really investing in employees. We're doing a lot of revamping of our benefits. I think it used to be, "Oh, come work at Momofuku, they're opening a gazillion restaurants a month, you'll grow," and we're not going to do that anymore because it's actually not the healthy thing long term. How do you show growth? How do you provide growth if you're not physically growing at the same rate? And so, we really look at it as growing and investing in people. And so, if you come to us and you leave more skilled than you came in and that then allows you to go out and get a job elsewhere at a higher level, great. If you then want to come back to us, which we're seeing a lot as well, after having worked somewhere else, great. I think for us, it's really the only way I think we're going to fix the labor shortage is basically investing in people to help solve it. We're trying a lot of these things, hoping they pay dividends. We're basically planting the seed because I think anyone who said, "Oh, once unemployment benefits go down, people will come back." Or, "Oh, after this time people will come back," it's like, that's total, you know, fooey.

Scott Rogowsky: Momo fooey

Nora Ali: Momo fooey. That's good.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: We'll see. I mean, we don't have a magic ball, but we're basically just taking the bet that, if we need more line cooks, let's train people to be them as opposed to anything else, so we'll see.

Nora Ali: We also heard this from Khushbu Shah that there's more focus amongst chefs and leaders and management of restaurants to focus on the wellbeing of their employees, mental health, benefits as you mentioned. What are the parts of the culture at Momofuku that you think are really allowing your employees to thrive and be happy and not want to quit? What do you hope to maintain over time?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I think we're trying to create more of a work-life balance. When we opened four restaurants in a year and if it's in Las Vegas, we had employees that were living in a hotel in Las Vegas for six weeks straight. It's like, maybe that works if you're young and you're starting out, but that's not a realistic expectation well, A, not for anyone first off. Second, if you have a family, that's just not something that's feasible. I think we really started to think about like, how do we design programs, design things around the realities of our workforce, which thankfully, we've had people be with us for a while who are starting to have kids. Are starting to get to an age where all these things, paternal leave, 401(k)s, etcetera are important. It's like, that's now the currency. It's not just being happy at work. And so, I think for us, that's what we're trying to do. I think one thing that I'm super into is retention benefits. Meaning, we are lucky enough to have some employees that have worked for us for, we're a 17-year old company, we've had employees who've worked for us for 15, 16 years, that should mean something. You should basically be laddering up. The longer you stay, if that's our goal is that you want to stay with us, then you should get something in exchange. We implemented a bunch of stuff during the pandemic where I think that's really meaningful. And I think whatever we can do to make it more attractive to stay than to leave, and that's what we're trying to do. I think the industry as a whole is changing and everyone needs to be aware of that and work towards that.

Scott Rogowsky: Marguerite, are you hiring?

Nora Ali: It sounds so nice over there.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, it's been a pleasure talking with you about all this and really congratulations on your rise, because we didn't even really make a point of that. It's been made before, but you're very young and to assume this...

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Not anymore.

Scott Rogowsky: Not anymore. Yeah. After the pandemic, none of us are.

Nora Ali: Don't say that, we're in the same age group. Don't say that.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. But no, to get a point to CEO at what, you weren't even 30 at that point, very impressive. You're clearly doing something right and you've got Dave's trust and now you've got ours. We're all onboard the Marguerite train and maybe we'll see Momofuku: The Ride next coming out of your brain. Is that possible? Give us a hopeful note here.

Nora Ali: At Disney World.

Scott Rogowsky: Where are we expanding? What's the next big thing besides another sauce or ensemble of the month club, what's the next big swing you want to take? Your NFT birthday truffles?

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: I don't know. I think we want to put good food where there currently isn't, so I think there's a lot of interesting companies that are doing vending machines in airports that have actual, fresh, good food, like Farmer's Fridge. I think, for example, a 7-Eleven, it's like, how do you take good food and put it where people are? I think that after operating restaurants in major cities, I think what our interest now is, I don't want to say democratization, but how do you basically meet people where they are because not everyone is in New York City, not everyone is in LA? That's what's super exciting to us and I think we're still figuring out, what does that look like on a practical basis? But we definitely want to feed more people at different price points than we've been to able to in the past.

Nora Ali: I love it. I'm hungry for a cookie now.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes.

Nora Ali: And for some ssäm bar. Well, Marguerite, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us.

Marguerite Mariscal Zabar: Yeah. Thank you guys.

Scott Rogowsky: Now, BC listeners, we want to hear from you. As the year comes to a close, we want to know what your favorite Business Casual episodes were this year. Oh boy. We are asking for it. We are asking for it. Wait til these start flooding in. Your favorite Biz Cas episodes. I don't know. We've done a lot of episodes. I think this was my favorite, Nora.

Nora Ali: I enjoyed this one. Yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm not supposed to throw it to you during this portion.

Nora Ali: I don't know.

Scott Rogowsky: I love this episode, Marguerite, so I hope you did too. Send an email to or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Z, casualpod with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave a voice memo on our website, or give us a call and leave us a message. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can include you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is based at buttered and broiled by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins, additional production sound design and mixing in the kitchen by Daniel Marcus. Alan Haburchak is director of audio at Morning Brew. Sarah Singer's our VP of multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus in the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder.

Scott Rogowsky: If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify into the new year or on Apple Podcasts if that's where you go for your ear candy. We'd love it if you would give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.