Dec. 29, 2022

Fixing Social Media’s Revenue Problem

What we can learn from Chinese tech companies

The online ad market is declining and social media companies are struggling to maintain their primary source of revenue. A paid subscription model might be the answer. Nora talks with Connie Chan, general partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z) and consumer tech expert, about the way Chinese tech companies utilize a paid subscription model to increase user engagement, which ultimately bolsters their advertising revenue. For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out


Host: Nora Ali

Producer: Raymond Luu  

Video Editors: Sebastian Vega

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus &Rosemary Minkler

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop


Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at


Nora Ali: For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, bringing you convos with people you know, and some you may not know yet, to make business less intimidating. Because money talks, but it does not have to be dull. I'm your host, Nora Ali. Now let's get down to business.

I have to admit, I don't mind ads on Instagram. That's because they're very specific to me, they're very targeted, and it's almost always a product that I'm going to be at least marginally interested in. But too many ads across all of our social platforms can get annoying. But I do guarantee one thing: Instagram and many of your other favorite social media sites are free to use. But as we're witnessing now across industries, the online ad market is declining and advertisers are pulling back spending, leading to mass layoffs at major tech companies.

Well, one consumer tech expert believes that a change in revenue model might enable tech companies to not only diversify their revenue streams, but actually increase member engagement. Connie Chan is a general partner from Andreessen Horowitz, and is one of the leading experts who can translate how trends in Asia may benefit the West. Connie revealed how implementing a paid membership program can lead to innovative features that benefit the company, advertisers, creators, and users. Sounds too good to be true, right?

Well, Bilibili and Weibo are just a couple examples of how using a mixture of ad-based and subscription-based models is successful in China, and offers a robust and varied user experience. For Connie, learning from these Chinese tech companies can be the key to elevating the experience for both American tech companies and the American consumer. Maybe even Twitter can learn a thing or two from these companies on how to do it right.

Just a quick legal note before we get to my conversation with Connie: The content of this conversation is for informational purposes only and shouldn't be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and it is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. Okay, now onto our conversation. That's next, after the break. 

Connie, welcome back to Business Casual. You've been on it before, not with me, but it's good to have you on.

Connie Chan: Thank you so much, Nora. Great to be back.

Nora Ali: Let's start with a quick icebreaker for a segment called OG Occupations. Connie, what was your first-ever job that you have ever had?

Connie Chan: First-ever job job is probably tutoring in high school.

Nora Ali: Ooh, what subject?

Connie Chan: SATs.

Nora Ali: Me too, Connie. I used to tutor my neighbors for their SATs.

Connie Chan: I actually thought it would be so much more fun to try cashier jobs and other things, but you just made so much more as an SAT tutor.

Nora Ali: Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. The per hour that you can charge if you've got the right clientele.

Connie Chan: Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

Nora Ali: All right, well, let's get into it. We're going to talk all things consumer global tech, subscriptions, monetization models. So starting broadly, you have said that the consumer global tech industry is in defense mode rather than innovation mode right now. What does that mean, exactly? And I guess, what does that mean for startups?

Connie Chan: I just look at these large companies, and now more than ever, there's a lot of copying features from one another. I think five, 10 years ago, that was considered not okay or less desirable to do. It's like if you were Twitter, you did the real time update status and that's like all you did. And then basically I feel like after Instagram incorporated Stories into their product, now it's like a free for all and everyone's like, "Well, now I need short stories too. Now I need short video too. Now I need live video. Now I need live shopping."

There's just much more copying of each other. I look at YouTube and their foray into Shorts. I just look at these large tech companies and they're all now taking features from each other to try and retain mindshare of creators and users.

Nora Ali: Is that a good or a bad thing?

Connie Chan: It's a tricky thing, because on one hand, they're all trying to fight for the creators' attention. Creators ideally will have more leverage against these platforms, because clearly these platforms are waking up to the fact that they need these creators. But for end consumers, I think ultimately it could be a bad thing, because what happens is these large tech companies focus on copying features from each other, and then there's a bunch of really core features that they lose complete sight of. 

For example, I think Facebook Groups is still a great product for people to use to find other like-minded people. But let's be honest—that product has not evolved very much for many years, and it's such a key gem that lives inside of Meta, and yet they're not doing that much with it. Or I think about the core reason why we even started using Instagram or Facebook to begin with. I mean, we weren't using it 10 years ago or 15 years ago to follow creators and influencers. We were going there to look for updates from our friends and family and coworkers, and now people are no longer posting as much about their photos or their personal lives. They might do it on Instagram with a Story format, but they're not using the post nearly as much.

Nora Ali: You said something interesting: These platforms are fighting for creators' attention, which I think is more of a focus in the last few years than in the past, where it would've been more focused on perhaps the end user or the consumer. This focus on the creator, how does that translate into the monetization models and avenues these social platforms are trying out, whether it's relying maybe less on advertising and more on subscriptions? How does that focus change?

Connie Chan: Yeah, it's both, actually. I think a big reason why people started to focus on creators is because ultimately if you are an advertising-based business model, time in app is what matters. So ultimately, all these companies, because they were advertising-based to begin with, they care about time in app, and creators and longer content clearly will create more time in app because there's a limit, there's a ceiling to how much content your friends can create. At the same time, I do think focusing on creators can open up new revenue streams, but it really takes a platform's focus to unlock those revenue streams.

Creators are looking for alternative avenues outside of just sponsorships and advertising revenue share. They want to be able to charge, whether it's for some subscription or whether it's for tipping, some kind of VIP membership with their biggest fans. There's a lot of things that these platforms could do. I think most of them are moving too slowly in that direction, and it's probably causing some creator angst. And then that's causing this other effect, which is that all these platforms are fighting for creator mind share. Now creators are more cognizant that they're subject to algorithms. They need to diversify their audience across multiple platforms.

You need your Beacons equivalent in the LinkedIn bio, because you can't just be big on TikTok or Instagram, because one day the algorithm can change and your followers aren't all going to see your content. I think a lot of that started, if you peel all of it back, because their business models are all ad-based.

Nora Ali: What do you think is the focus right now, from the creator standpoint? Is it to get the most eyeballs for the longest amount of time, or is it to really curate that smaller, engaged list of audience members?

Connie Chan: I think both can work, and it probably depends on the type of creator. If your content is more entertainment-based, you might focus for more eyeballs, especially if it's mass appeal content. But you also have other creators who are, say, doctors or people who have struggled through certain diseases or have overcome them, or maybe they're nutritionists or fitness coaches. Those are great influencers and creators too, and their teaching and expertise. Oftentimes those folks are very well situated with smaller audiences who are willing to pay a lot because the content that they're providing can solve a problem for the end viewer. In those kinds of creator use cases, I think a lot of these platforms should open up better monetization.

Nora Ali: Connie, you've studied Chinese tech for a long time and most of our listeners are based in the US, who are very familiar with the kinds of apps that really succeed here in the US. But can you give us a sense of what the main social platforms are in China? What are the monetization models there? And also the notion of super apps, which we've been hearing about more here in the US.

Connie Chan: Super apps in my mind is defined as, you are an app that might have one primary use case, whether it's, say, chatting or sharing photos or whatever it is, or even food delivery, but you understand that user so much that you're able to work with third party developers to include all this other functionality that can solve other core problems that that same end user might have, which means that you can take the traffic that you're getting from your original use case, but then repurpose it or redirect it and lead gen for all of these other things, ultimately creating a better use case for end consumer because they can stay inside of one app instead of having to go open new browsers, open new webpages, and so forth.

China's social media consumer landscape looks quite different than the US. I'd say there are maybe three that I'll call out today. One obviously being WeChat. The entire country operates on WeChat. I think of it as an operating system. I can live my entire day inside WeChat and fully function in China. Conversely, if I lost it, I have no idea how to contact any of my friends there. I don't have their phone numbers. I don't have their email addresses. I literally cannot contact them if I lose my WeChat.

Nora Ali: Why is that? Why is it so singular versus our fragmented way of communicating here in the US?

Connie Chan: The US is so fragmented and it is so annoying. The first thing when I wake up, I have to check five, six apps just to get all my messages, right? It's like you have one friend who you use Signal with, and you have one friend who you use WhatsApp with, and it's so annoying. But in China, it all lives inside one app. You basically use WeChat to communicate with everyone, from your friends to your dating partners, to your colleagues, to your family. Everything just lives inside of one application. And I gotta tell you, I actually think it's much more efficient when everything lives in one place. There are all these features and product things you can do to keep it still clean and functional. I think a big reason why that happened is if you look back 10 years, China in many ways leapfrogged the computer and they switched all communication over to WeChat, or QQ before that, very quickly, to the point where even email penetration wasn't that high. And also, text spam used to be a huge problem. And so texting wasn't this huge preferred way of communicating with each other. And just because, honestly, WeChat is a very well-designed product. So WeChat obviously number one, I'd say, social media platform to think about.

The second one, I would say, is Sina Weibo. Weibo is actually very similar to US Twitter in the sense that it is real time, where you're going to get the latest news. You can follow official accounts. A lot of celebrities and influencers are using it. But in some ways, it's kind of like Twitter plus Instagram plus Reddit. A lot of influencers and celebrities use Weibo as their main outlet. 

Another one that I love, which is up and coming, is called Bilibili, and Bilibili is kind of started as a place where people would go and gather and watch things like anime and talk about it. But now it's just a fantastic platform for UGC video and also just interspace communities.

Nora Ali: Are these apps mostly subscription membership-based or ad-supported? How does that all work?

Connie Chan: They vary, but I would say that they're much more diversified in revenue stream versus the US ones. Weibo Twitter, membership is substantial revenue. It's over $120 million per year revenue for that company. Advertising is still their biggest revenue stream, though, so don't get me wrong. It's not like memberships overtakes the revenue stream for Weibo, but memberships is substantial.

The interesting thing about memberships there is that memberships increases time in app and it increases engagement and retention for core users, because you add a lot of gamification and fun carrots into using this platform. It benefits the advertising revenue too, because it keeps you in the app for longer. It gives you more reasons to use the app. They're kind of intertwined.

Nora Ali: All right, we are going to take a very quick break. More with Connie when we come back. 

Connie, you laid out some of the pros and cons of both the subscription membership models and also ad-supported models. But in difficult economic times like the one we find ourselves in now, I guess this is the million-dollar question. Is either a subscription model or an ad-supported model more resilient? Where obviously, both rely on the spending power of the consumer at the end of the day, but the latter, i.e., being ad-supported, puts that corporate brand layer in between. So is one better than the other when economic times are hard?

Connie Chan: I think you need both, and then you need to be flexible on how you structure them. Subscription memberships in China are cheap. And on top of that, they're often bundled together. Imagine if Spotify and Amazon Prime, although those kind of conflict, for music, and say Netflix and Twitter were all bundled in one, and you paid one monthly rate that was say 30% or 40% off. A lot of people in China might bundle these subscriptions together. Or even if they're paying them a la carte, again, they're all generally less than $5. It's like $2, $3 so you don't really think about it.

In the US, it's still unclear how resilient it is in certain economies just because the price points are so much higher. We're talking anywhere between $8 to $20 per month, and those things do add up. 

But then this whole third bucket of monetization, which is commerce, is the one that I think is the really untapped, exciting one, because that makes advertising a lot more powerful and a lot more nuanced and interesting.

Nora Ali: For people who don't really understand how social commerce works in China, where it's much more robust than it is here, what do you think it'll take for us to get to that point here in the US, where social commerce really is driving monetization for these platforms?

Connie Chan: One, it starts with the platform. The platform has to put a stake in the ground and say that we are going to go after commerce, because it is a huge lift to get commerce up and running. It is a whole ecosystem that needs to be built. Not only is it the tech piece of creating these shops where people just even have a storefront, that's just the beginning. On top of that, you need to go recruit potential new sellers. You need to train them how to sell on whether it's video or live video. You have to get them merchandise, because they're going to run out of things to sell real fast. And then you have to help them with either dropshipping or the actual fulfillment of these orders or the returns of these orders.

It's a huge ecosystem that has to get built. It's not for the faint of heart, but it's a massive, massive opportunity. And I think what platforms are not realizing that is if you get commerce right, your ads are so much more valuable. And if you get commerce, your ability to go into payments and fintech is also more viable. Commerce is actually a great wedge into a lot of future opportunities, but again, it's a very, very big lift to get up and running. I think the mistake that platforms make is they think that just by creating the tech and just by creating the storefront, build it and they will come...the sellers will just figure it out. If there's a market, it'll work. And it doesn't work that way. Sellers need to be trained. People who are big on Instagram or YouTube aren't necessarily naturally great sellers. Sometimes it's like a brand new skill set. Like I grew up watching lots of infomercials.

Nora Ali: Me too.

Connie Chan: I can tell you, the skill set of the blond lady that sells the blender or the rotisserie chicken thing is a really different skill set than like an actress, right?

Nora Ali: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Connie Chan: We're now asking actresses, or we think actresses can become that person who sells the Juiceman. It just doesn't work. It's a different influencer. It's a different seller that has to emerge, and the platforms need to catalyze that. They need to train sellers on how to do that. And that is a really big lift for most individuals. You need companies to be created that do that heavy lifting too.

Nora Ali: Which platforms do you predict will be the most successful in commerce? Because they've succeeded in different ways, where Instagram does have the in-app checkout, for example. Pinterest is trying to drive you to shop in-app as well. On TikTok, items sell out all the time just because you have these creators who are using an eyeliner and everyone's like, me included, "I need to buy that eyeliner," but there's no good experience within the app to actually go buy it. Who do you think is going to succeed there?

Connie Chan: I mean, the ones who have the best shot are TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. The reason why I named those, and maybe TikTok and YouTube in some ways even more so, because this is a different kind of shopping that's discovery-based. In the US, most of our e-commerce, I still feel like is search-based. When I go to Amazon, I am going straight to that search bar. I'm not navigating around. Actually, that's true of most websites. If I'm going to Nordstrom, if I'm going to whatever, you name any e-commerce destination website, I am generally searching for something or going straight to the navigation bar. I'm never looking at that main homepage. Pinterest is actually discovery-based shopping, but for photos. I think that video discovery-based shopping is the big untapped opportunity. Instagram, ironically...they know so much about what I'm likely to convert on. They know so much about my purchasing ability. I know it, because their ads are so good.

Nora Ali: Yes.

Connie Chan: Their ads are very good at targeting. So in theory, they should be able to also surface videos that I'm likely to convert onto, but it's gonna require a big operational lift on their part. These companies need to have the DNA to do that. It's very different than just building out software.

Nora Ali: Of those platforms that we listed in the commerce sense, Twitter does not come up because Twitter does not feel like a commerce-focused platform at all. But under Elon Musk, they've kind of tried to resurrect the subscription idea with Twitter Blue. We know that rollout did not go very well. But what do you think it'll...

Connie Chan: It's not done yet. 

Nora Ali: It's not done yet. That's true. You're absolutely right. We're in the early days of...

Connie Chan: It might never be done for awhile.

Nora Ali: Yeah. There are bumps along the way and criticisms as to how the rollout went. That's neither here nor there. But what do you think it'll take to make the subscription model work for Twitter? Do you think this is a good path that Musk is going down, at least?

Connie Chan: I think memberships is definitely a good path, but we need a lot more features and we need a lot more nuance into what that membership entails. I mean, the Weibo membership is so advanced. I wrote a blog post on this recently. If you even just compare the list of features that you have on Weibo versus Twitter Blue, it is more than 3X, 4X maybe.

Nora Ali: Can you give us some examples of what the features are?

Connie Chan: Yeah. There's some really creative ones. One is, you can pin two posts on your profile page. That's actually super valuable, right? One pin might be something you find funny or your most recent big thesis or thought, and then the second pin is something you want to divert your audience to. Maybe your first pin is the catchy thing, and then the second one is a link to a podcast or a link to an article or a book. Right now on Twitter, the way we use it is we'll have something that blows up and then the person will write like, "Oh, that just blew up. While I have your attention, go look at this other thing." It's not as elegant as having two pins. 

Another one is you can follow some people anonymously. I think that one's super interesting, because all of us have brands or people that might not be on brand, but we're intrigued even just for entertainment purposes on what they're posting. You don't want to be judged for following them, right?

Nora Ali: You don't want to be outed.

Connie Chan: But now here you can follow some people anonymously. I think that's really creative. And then I've even heard that influencers like it because there are celebrities that don't want their friends to get harassed, because all their fans go follow all the people that they follow. But now they can follow some people anonymously and use the app in really creative ways. 

Another really fun thing about Weibo membership is there's this idea of leveling and points. This is common in a lot of the Chinese memberships, where you start at level zero or level one. But the more you engage with the platform or the more credibility you earn, you can level up. As you level up, you unlock more features. And so there's this idea of earned versus bot. Actually, even going back to level one membership, if you can't afford it, there's things you can do to also earn extra free months. So maybe you pay for the first month, but all your months after are cheaper. There's this reward for usage and there's this reward for good content. And that's this incentive ecosystem that's been built for people to spend more time in app, but also create better content, create more useful content, which creates a better experience for everyone.

Nora Ali: What you're saying is, Elon Musk should just copy Weibo?

Connie Chan: I think there's a lot of ideas. There's a ton of ideas we can take from Weibo, and that's just the membership front. There's a ton of stuff we can learn from their interest pages and topic pages. Again, I don't know what Twitter's roadmap is going to look like, but there are so many creative business models in China. That's just the Weibo membership. The Bilibili membership is even crazier. You have to take a quiz, a 100-question quiz.

Nora Ali: 100 questions?

Connie Chan: Yeah, and it's specific to each topic. Maybe you're in tech or maybe you're into anime or maybe you're into food or whatever. It's a quiz that is all around that topic, and it's a really, really hard quiz.

Nora Ali: Is this their means of verifying people to make sure that you actually know what you're talking about?

Connie Chan: In some ways, yes. Because now anyone who's passed the quiz, when they write comments or if they upload video, it's a filter. It's a filter for quality of content and it's a filter for expertise. For example, on Bilibili, even after you pass that, you can leave comments, but there are certain places on the page where those comments are reserved for the uber experts.

Nora Ali: Wow! A way to weed out misinformation, disinformation, check your sources. Why aren't we talking about this more in the US, Connie?

Connie Chan: All these things. So it weeds out....and even when I go back to the Weibo example, another thing, it's like, they really limit how frequently you can change your username. And then once you pay for the membership but you earn higher levels, you can change your name more frequently. It's still not that frequent, but more frequently. Those little things help get rid of spam.

Nora Ali: We could use more of that here. We're going to take another very quick break. More with Connie when we return. 

Connie, we're back, and I want to do a little bit of a lightning round and talk about the subscription membership model across different industries that we didn't touch on as much. For gaming, specifically, the monetization model that seems to work really well is this notion of microtransactions, where you can buy a skin, you can buy a hat, make yourself look cool, whatever it is. But this is really fueling revenue for a lot of these gaming companies. Do you think the notion of microtransactions can translate into social media and maybe help to complement, say, a subscription model?

Connie Chan: Totally, and I'll answer that in two parts. The first part, even the decorative things around your profile, Weibo has that too. I didn't even mention that in their memberships, but it's like you can have a wreath around your profile photo, or like literally a hat or a crown or tiara, whatever it is. Okay, going back to microtransactions on social, I think the easiest place to start is through tipping. To me that's the easiest place, because we have content creators that many of us really like and we want to reward, but we might not be willing to pay them $10 a month. But when they have one piece of content that really speaks to us, if we could vote with more than just the "like," little amounts of money can really add up.

I think tipping is the easiest place to start, creator tipping. And that could be a monthly subscription, but it could also be this kind of one-time transaction and it could be content-specific. Creators also get another signal on how valuable their content is, because the number of likes might not be the same as the dollar value of the content that they're creating. Another incentive is, especially when it comes to video creators or live video, live video is where tipping works the best.

Nora Ali: Like Twitch, for example.

Connie Chan: It's because the creator can see it and be like, "Thank you, Nora. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to see you today. How are you doing?" These platforms are so smart because what they can do is they can be like, "Nora tipped you $5 last time." When she comes back into your stream, it'll pop up and be like, "Big tipper Nora's back." And I'll be like, "Nora, thanks so much for coming back. I'm so excited you're here."

Nora Ali: And I'll feel so good sitting at home like, "Oh my gosh, I've been acknowledged by my favorite creator."

Connie Chan: I know, and then you might tip me again, right? But I think ultimately this is all good because it's about incentive alignment. The creator now has incentive to make their fans feel seen or happy or to create better, more useful, more valuable content. That's good.

Nora Ali: Really quickly, since it is such a zeitgeisty topic right now, I want to get your take on subscriptions for AI tech, because I saw a tweet literally today where someone said they'd be willing to pay $1,000 per month for ChatGPT, which is the chat bot from OpenAI that everyone's been using. It uses natural language process. You can ask it anything, have conversations with it. And people are increasingly having their AI stack to build companies, whether it's for coding, copywriting and editing, planning, scheduling. You can create an entire company as an entrepreneur with these AI consumer tools. How do you foresee AI platforms tapping into subscriptions and ultimately monetizing an entrepreneur who's using all those tools?

Connie Chan: I think a lot of them can use subscriptions, whether it's for writing for a specific type of vertical use case, or maybe it's even music. I think subscriptions is totally possible, as long as it's for a use case where the user can see themselves using it multiple times a month. Basically, as long as the user can see themselves using this long-term, subscriptions totally makes sense. The times where it doesn't make sense is where it's like a one-time use case, or I'm only going to try it once. Now that I have the cool avatars, how many more avatars am I going to make? Although I've already made many packs of avatars.

Nora Ali: Are you talking about Lensa AI?

Connie Chan: Yes, of course, of course. I've converted lots of friends to using stuff like that. But I don't know. Will I still be creating more avatars a month or two months from now? If they create more templates, maybe. But again, subscriptions works if the user believes that there's a chance that they're going to use this thing more than once per month.

Nora Ali: Okay, last thing, Connie. We have a fun game that our producer Raymond put together. It's called Two Beats and A Miss, Subscription Edition. It's just our Business Casual version of Two Truths and a Lie. So I'm going to describe three subscription companies that are unique, and you have to pick which one of these subscription companies is fake. We're talking subscriptions in maybe the more traditional sense. Okay, I'll read them all and then you tell me which one is not real. Number one: Skulls Unlimited BoneBox. Skulls Unlimited offers a host of bone-related products and services, from selling real and replica animal and human bones to accepting and cleaning bones from customers. Put some skeletons in your closet. This is a monthly box that you get with bones in it. How fun! 

Okay, number two. Yeah, it was strange. Okay, number two is called Retrofitted. Every month Retrofitted sends you old gadgets, devices, and tech from the '80s and '90s, and these can range from floppy disks to pagers to dot matrix printers, all in mint condition, and customers can retrofit their office, throw themed parties, or remember the days where technology didn't own our lives. That's Retrofitted. 

The last one is called Cryptid Crate. UFOs, Bigfoot, Area 51, and aliens are some of those conspiracy theories and small-town legends we don't really know are true, but we can't disprove it either. Cryptid Crate is a subscription box that's all about conspiracies and mythical monsters. It can be a fun subscription box to share with your kids or friends, and each month you'll get to learn about another urban legend and try to solve mysteries together. Okay, so Skulls Unlimited, Retrofitted, or Cryptid Crate. Which one is made up?

Connie Chan: Usually if there's like a magic trick, it's the one that's most obvious. I would say Retrofit is the one that's made up, potentially, although that's one I would actually pay for.

Nora Ali: Exactly. You're absolutely right.

Connie Chan: That's the one that I would pay for. But if you're trying to get me, that's the one that I wouldn't normally guess. I say Retrofit.

Nora Ali: If y'all at a16z are investing, Raymond Luu, our producer, came up with it. So maybe he's looking for some investment. You're absolutely right. Retrofitted sounds super dope. I would sign up for that, but it is fake, which makes it kind of alarming that you can get bones in the mail every month as an actual subscription.

Connie Chan: I wonder what the retention and LTV of that is. How many bones is like...

Nora Ali: It's probably just a very, very small consumer base who's very obsessed. Maybe it's like once a month, once a quarter. Who knows? But they'll pay lots of money for it. Okay, that's it. You win the game. Great conversation, Connie.

Connie Chan: Awesome.

Nora Ali: Thank you again for joining us on Business Casual. This is super fun.

Connie Chan: Thank you, Nora.

Nora Ali: This is Business Casual, and I'm Nora Ali. You can follow me on Twitter @NoraKAli, and I would love to hear from you. If you have ideas for episodes, comments, thoughts on episodes you loved, fun segment ideas, feel free to shoot me at DM and I will do my very best to respond. You can also reach the BC team by emailing, or call us. That number is 862-295-1135. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. If you like this show, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps. Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop and Raymond Luu. Additional production, sound design, and mixing by Daniel Markus, Rosemary Minkler, and Nick Torres. Kate Brandt is our fact checker, and AB Silver is our senior booking producer. Sebastian Vega and Evan Frolov edit our videos. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali. Keep it business, and keep it casual.