Nov. 17, 2022

Click, Spend, Repeat - Taking E-commerce To New Heights

Here are ways retailers can thrive right now

E-commerce has forever changed the way we spend our money. Nora chats with Bolt CEO Maju Kuruvilla about what today’s online shopping experience is lacking, and how Bolt plans to improve it. As a former VP of Global Logistics for Amazon, Maju explains why he thinks one-click checkout will solve the biggest problem for merchants. Ahead of the holidays, he tells us what to expect on Black Friday, and what supply chain issues we can expect this season. For more info on our presenting sponsor, check out


Host: Nora Ali

Producer: Raymond Luu   

Video Editor: Sebastian Vega

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Fact Checker: Kate Brandt 

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 


Full transcripts for all Business Casual episodes available at


Nora Ali: For Morning Brew, this is Business Casual, bringing you convos with people you know, and some you may not know yet, to make business less intimidating. Because money talks, but it does not have to be dull. I'm your host, Nora Ali. Now let's get down to business.

I grew up in Minnesota, which by some measures is the land of malls. It's home to the Mall of America, the biggest mall in the country, sitting on 5.6 million square feet of land with over 520 retail stores and an actual theme park inside. It's also home to the oldest mall in America, Southdale Shopping Center. The state's abundance of malls, coupled with egregiously cold winters, made hanging out at the mall the go-to, and sometimes only social activity for me and my little high school friends growing up.

Now, I shudder at the idea of socializing at a mall, and shopping in-person is not my first choice. E-commerce has forever changed the way so many of us spend our money. The internet, mobile phones, two-day delivery, sometimes even 15-minute delivery, all make it even easier to just click, spend, repeat. But even with all the conveniences we have at our fingertips, there is one troubling stat that leaves many retailers scratching their heads. The average cart abandonment rate, meaning the rate at which shoppers ultimately don't complete their purchases after adding items to their online cart, is a whopping 70%. That adds up to $1 trillion in lost revenue.

Maju Kuruvilla, the CEO of, stopped by to explain what goes on behind the scenes to get you, the consumer, to complete that transaction to buy things online, and how those items ultimately end up at your door, especially as we embrace this particular holiday shopping season, supply chain issues included. Maju knows a thing or two about online retail. He was Amazon's VP and GM of global logistics, where he helped develop Amazon's signature two-day shipping and one-click checkout feature. All of that and more after a quick break.

Welcome to Business Casual. Excited to have you.

Maju Kuruvilla: Great to be here, Nora.

Nora Ali: I have a special place in my heart for e-commerce, as a former product manager in the world of e-commerce. So we have lots of questions, but first, an icebreaker to get to know you a little bit better. This segment is called Fill in the Blank, and I'm going to start a sentence and I want you to finish it for me. Over the next five years, I want people to know me for blank. What is that for you, Maju?

Maju Kuruvilla: Building the most impactful shopper network on the planet. 

Nora Ali: That's pretty good. I like that. So speaking of which, let's get into shopping and e-commerce. So a lot of us take online shopping for granted because it's so easy, it's so immediate, but not everyone knows how it actually happens, and you are the expert in how that happens. Before Bolt, you were at Amazon, you were the VP and GM of global logistics. So in pretty basic terms, can you tell us what happens from the moment shoppers click "Check out" until the moment that their product arrives at your doorstep?

Maju Kuruvilla: Thanks for asking me that. A lot of people think of the magic when you click the button and things show up. The minute you click on something, the online merchant need to check the inventory to make sure you have that inventory. You have to reserve that inventory so that nobody else take possession of that. When you have high volume and high traffic, gotta make sure that there's a place in line, you hold the inventory. Then you have to check about the payments, you got to validate that you have the right payment methods in place. You have to make sure there is enough funds available for that credit check, fraud. Make sure you don't have anything suspicious in this activity. Then you have to decide where are you going to fulfill this from. This inventory might be sitting, you have to find what is the closest to one that's sitting to the customer, drop this order right there, and it comes down to the fulfillment center.

Now you have somebody see this based on the technology they use, get the item, find the appropriate box to put this in, find the appropriate packaging materials to protect it, pack it, find the shipping label, goes on a truck, usually go to a distribution center from where it goes on a smaller last-mile delivery truck. From there, it shows up right at your doorsteps, and it used to take weeks to make that all happen. And in December 2014, we were able to launch even the one-hour fulfillment, which was Prime Now to make that magic happen.

Nora Ali: How does the time from checkout to actual delivery shorten? What is the most important thing? Is it accessibility of fulfillment centers? Is it accessibility of inventory overall? What's the best way to make that time span shorter?

Maju Kuruvilla: In an ideal scenario, you want to have perfect inventory. That is, everything any customer potentially wants, sit right next to their house. So when somebody ordered, there is a bunch of delays that happen purely on the internet side, like the fraud check, payment validation, and all of that, which usually happens pretty fast behind the scenes. But if you have the inventory sitting right next to the customer, then you can just give it to them. But the problem is inventory is costly, so you have to be more capital efficient. So then you look at, how do you consolidate this inventory closer to the customer, yet not replicated, you reduce the overall inventory, and then oftentimes you try to centralize it. And a massively optimal one means you only have one fulfillment center sitting for the entire, for example, the US.

On one side, you could have all inventory every customer wants sitting right next to the customer, or all inventory every customer wants in one building in the middle of the US so you can ship from. It's a cost optimization. Cost and speed, you work on those two, and you have to figure out what is the right optimal balance. Nowadays my kids buy something and if it doesn't show up within an hour or two, they get upset.

Nora Ali: Yeah, the expectation is really high. And you started at Amazon in 2013; obviously a lot has changed in e-commerce since then. What would you say is the most important thing for consumers? Because now we take speed for granted, we take free shipping for granted. Now there's more concern around environmental friendliness, for example. So from your perspective, what do consumers care about when it comes to e-commerce now?

Maju Kuruvilla: It has been an evolution. In 2014 December, when we launched Prime Now, I was honored to be one of the first people to go and deliver this directly to the customers, and it was magic for them. So we were able to deliver things within eight minutes of somebody ordered. That was providing an experience that they didn't even think that was possible. Clearly, you train the consumer with speed and once they get the taste of it, nobody wants less, everybody wants things faster, nobody say they want things slower. But what we are seeing now is the newer generation is trending towards the experience, they want to understand more about the brand, they want to know what the brand stands for. And so that connection with the brand and the experience of shopping, whether that's live streaming, whether they're following some influencers and identifying trends and wanting to buy something. So a lot more of that experiential aspect and connection to the brand is becoming a very much more important right now beyond the table stakes of price, selection, and convenience.

Nora Ali: We'll get to that experience and how Bolt fits into it in a moment. But I want to go back to this idea of speed, where you said if someone gets a product in eight minutes, now this is something that they expect going forward. And for Amazon, do you feel like Amazon manufactured this need for speed, where we had no clue we could get stuff immediately? And now there's so many 15-minute grocery delivery startups now. If this is a manufactured need, do you think those kinds of companies will be able to sustain themselves and actually create robust businesses?

Maju Kuruvilla: Well, it's like internet, Nora. The way I think about it is, back in the day, internet was very slow. I mean, you used to dial up internet and things used to take forever to download, then came technology with fiber optics and do things. What we are doing right now, we are streaming and live streaming over the internet. Now that we know this, everybody is used to it, there's no going back. So now the question really to the retailers and everyone in the industry is like, how are you going to meet the consumer or the customer where they are? Whatever we train the consumer, it is what it is. So the question is, how do you meet their needs? How do you make it more effective? There are some innovations, for example. I mean, not everything needs to come in super fast also, it's not all about speed. For example, there are innovations to say that, "Hey, you get a delivery every week, everything you want, and we just keep shipping it every week." And people are more conscious about sustainability. So if you know that less trucks are driving around and less packaging materials are used, people are willing to wait.

Nora Ali: Yeah, definitely. And if you're willing to wait or have a recurring subscription, often that means a lower price point, so you're getting something in exchange for the speed tradeoff. So after leaving Amazon, you went on to; you're now currently CEO. Bolt, as we know, enables one-click checkout which Amazon itself popularized. So what kinds of merchants are you working with at Bolt, and where and how might our listeners come across Bolt's technology? 

Maju Kuruvilla: So one of the things I realized working at Amazon is like, consumers, we talked about the convenience of one-click and how easy people want to buy, they really like that, they got used to it. Now people also want to buy from places beyond Amazon, but the problem is that technology doesn't really exist for most of the merchants outside of Amazon. I don't know, Nora, last time you went to buy something outside of some new brands, you go, you really like something, you want to buy it, and then you click on "Buy" and then it is asking for a long order form where you have to type in all of your information and all of your credit card details. You don't expect that. And even with the younger consumers who have even less span of attention, this is a distraction that they don't want to move forward.

So what Bolt is providing is that accelerated buying experience. When you want to buy something, how can we make that buying super easy? We started working for small and medium businesses, which we continue to do, but what we have done over time is we expanded out our services to everybody because we found that as much as it's a problem for the small and medium business, it's a bigger problem for larger merchants and it's a bigger problem for large portfolio merchants. And the way we provide is fairly unique in the sense that we provide a white-labeled or a gray-labeled product for merchants. So we provide an in-brand experience for merchants. You will see that there are buttons nowadays that allow you to do sometimes a faster checkout, and one or two would've been good, but now there are so many buttons that allow you to make buying the choice on a merchant site. And while that's helpful for shoppers, it would be great if the merchant natively provide that one-click checkout experience, just like how Amazon does.

Nora Ali: So all the information for the user is stored where, then, such that it's easy for the merchants to extract that information? 

Maju Kuruvilla: Yeah. Think of it's a network of shoppers. Let's say I go and shop on a particular site, for example, something like a Lucky Jeans brand site. I go, I buy something, and even if I've never been on that site, what we look for is has that shopper shopped on any of the other sites that used bulk checkout? And if they have shopped anywhere else, we go look up and say, "Huh, we know who you are and we have all your information. Why don't we skip all the friction extra process that usually you have to go through and just give you an accelerated one-click checkout experience." But it also matters to the retailers because we know when we provide that accelerated checkout experience without friction, there is a 30% to 50% increase in conversion at that checkout. So you're essentially helping merchants to increase their topline by accelerating or providing that accelerated checkout experience. 

Nora Ali: We're going to take a very quick break. More with Maju when we return.

So you mentioned that this one-click checkout experience, issues with conversion at the end of a checkout experience, is an issue for large and small merchants alike. You wrote on a blog post for Bolt that the average cart abandonment rate in e-commerce is 70%, which adds up to a trillion dollars in lost annual revenue, so this is people adding things to their cart and leaving and not actually checking out. So does this final step get neglected by merchants? Is it just hard for consumers to commit at the end of the transaction? Why are we seeing such a high cart abandonment rate?

Maju Kuruvilla: It's the biggest pet peeve of mine. Retailers are spending so much time and money bringing shoppers to their website. They take them through, give them an experience, you buy something and they add to cart, and then now you have a high-intent shopper who's ready to buy something, and you click on that checkout button. 70% of shoppers drop off right at that point, and 80% if you are on mobile. What I found is that some retailers are not looking deeply into that particular point, because most of the time, you have marketing teams that are very focused on bringing shoppers to their site and taking them all the way through, and once they add to cart, you consider that as a success. And then it's usually taken over by a payments team who is now trying to figure out how to reduce the cost of payments. And sometimes it's less of a focus of, how do you make sure that last click that really matters, which is where the consumer is actually buying, you have that end-to-end focus. So think about a physical store, it's an amazing store and you have a great experience and people put everything in the cart and then they went to the checkout line. And if you have a really bad experience for that, that's not helpful. So this is where I spent a lot of time directly with the CEO of retailers, and some companies have created this head of e-commerce role to really look at this end to end. So I'm starting to see more retailers really paying attention to this now. We are here to help them with technology to accelerate their vision.

Nora Ali: Well, Maju, you'll be pleased to know that when I was a product manager for, one of the user experiences I was responsible for was the checkout experience. So I know that there's a lot of small things even that you can do to increase conversion, i.e., people actually placing their order. There's choice of payment options, for example. Even things like the placement size and copy on the checkout buttons can make such a difference. What are some of the biggest things that can get people to complete their purchase that you, as a shopper, might not automatically think has such a big impact?

Maju Kuruvilla: So obviously removing any steps would be the number one contributor to conversion, but you understand this very well, and probably better than anybody else with your background, where our team is obsessed over this one area. We think of checkout, that's our main thing. So we have people obsessing over every pixel on the screen to say, how does it look? How does it look on web? How does it look on mobile? How does it look on all the different browsers? What we do really is we do a lot of A/B testing and [other] testing, like variety of testing. And we have the opportunity to learn across merchants. We can see what's working for some merchants and sometimes we collaborate with merchants, we see how things are improving and we are able to share some of that, build those features into our product so that it's available for everyone who is using that product. So the ideal step is to remove everything and then make sure that it's optimal on all different devices and platforms. 

Nora Ali: We are so spoiled as shoppers, because if I have to fill out my shipping address, for example, oftentimes it'll be auto-filled on my mobile device, but some merchants don't allow for the auto-fill or don't have that set up for some reason or blocked. If I have to type in my address, I will bounce; I will not complete my order unless it's very high intent. So I don't know, I just feel like we are getting quite spoiled as online shoppers.

Maju Kuruvilla: It's interesting you say that. Doing that one-click checkout and having that friction free is obviously important for all the reasons we said, but that's just the beginning. And the first time when somebody come in, we know 30% to 50% probability of converting them the minute they come in. That's great. But imagine if they can create an account for them and now increase the probability of them coming back as a repeat customer. But we are thinking broadly for the merchants, like, how do we really convert that shopper to a lifetime customer? And the only way you can have that relationship is if you create an account with them and build that relationship. So helping them with that full circle beyond that one-click checkout is important in this scenario.

Nora Ali: Okay, we are going to take a quick break. More with Maju when we return.

Maju, holiday shopping season is upon us. We're leading up to Black Friday, Cyber Monday, etc. There's also these other manufactured shopping holidays that happen throughout the year, like Amazon Prime Day, which happens for multiple days in the summer. This year, they also had it in October; Target and other retailers offering big discounts around those days to compete with Amazon. Holiday shopping itself is becoming more and more spread out throughout the year. So from your perspective, how has the holiday shopping experience changed over time?

Maju Kuruvilla: Black Friday and Cyber Monday was everything. I mean, there's a reason why it's called Black Friday—that's when all the retailers are becoming profitable. So when we were at Amazon, we used to think about, how do we shape the demand? I mean, it's great to have this one peak, but what if we can shape the demand a little bit? It's just for an internal optimization perspective, like, how do we make it easier on our systems and our supply chain by flattening the curve a little bit? Amazon started offering some early deals so that people will start looking at it a little bit early and start to flattening. But then what we are seeing now is consumers are changing and adapting to that initial measures that started by Amazon. People are starting to look for deals much earlier, especially with the changes that are happening with the supply chain shifts and the inflation and the inventory correction that a lot of retailers have created.

Consumers are changing their behavior, and in a lot of ways it's a one-two punch for retailers. On one side you have inventory cost going higher, you have higher inventory based on the supply chain disruption. And the other side, you have these consumers who are more price sensitive and looking for deals. And we find that around 54% of shoppers said they are looking for deals right now. And so now the question is, how are retailers going to shift to meet that demand and get some of those early shoppers? You started to see Amazon did a second Prime Day in the first week of October, and usually Amazon is a trendsetter on these things. So they did their second Prime Day; it's not as successful as obviously the main Prime Day. But what you're seeing is they want to capture those shoppers who are shopping early, and now everybody else have to follow this and everybody else have to do to make sure that they capture those shoppers earlier in the cycle.

Nora Ali: I mean, this is something that I've known in the back of my head, but after hearing you talk about Amazon, you realize just how much influence it has had on our lives. You said they've shaped demand by offering new shopping holidays, they've shaped expectations because they offered fast shipping before anyone else did. And even in terms of distribution, you see so many direct-to-consumer companies who promise that they're only going to sell direct-to-consumer on their website or in their stores, but they end up also selling on Amazon because that's the only way you can really reach wide distribution for certain categories. Maybe this is a philosophical question, but would you say Amazon has been a net good for merchants, for small merchants, especially, who are just trying to survive and keep up with the behemoth?

Maju Kuruvilla: I mean, it certainly is a big leader that created a lot of trends, because before Amazon, people were not very comfortable buying online, and now buying online is second nature to almost everybody.

Recorded audio: Amazon has changed the game completely. So what they excel at is getting an object from a creator to a consumer as flawlessly as they can and as quickly as they can. So Amazon is changing people's expectations and they're perpetually improving those expectations.

Maju Kuruvilla: But the problem is Amazon is the only one innovating. Everybody else is in a catch-up mode and that has to change. Retailers all need to innovate, and the reason why a lot of the retailers are not able to innovate in my view is they don't have the right technology and they don't have the right partners. If you think of some of these big players, they have all created their own end-to-end ecosystem. I mean, as a merchant, you can provide a great experience if you are on Amazon or if you are on Shopify. And while that's good, the problem is, for innovation to happen, there needs to be a lot more decentralization needs to be available, their merchants should be able to pick and choose and there has to be a lot more innovation.

And you see in Asia, especially in China, there's a lot more innovation happening in payments and retail. It's because there is a lot more players, a lot more democratization and decentralization happening. So rather than looking at whether Amazon is good for the market, I would say there has to be more innovation, and more retailers need to drive that, and more competition and choices in the market is what's good for consumers, and that's what in the end matters, is what is good for the consumer. 

Nora Ali: Speaking of the challenges that retailers are facing, there's plenty right now: You alluded to inflation, we're seeing an impending recession, supply chain issue still that are lingering from the pandemic. How do you think all of this, all these sort of macro issues are going to impact shopper's behavior this holiday season?

Maju Kuruvilla: It's interesting. If you look at the research, you find that almost 86% of the consumers say their online holiday shopping spending is not going to change a whole lot. The spending is probably going to be the same on the e-commerce, and in fact, it's going to continue to grow. We are going to see probably around 8% growth for this year, but the consumer behavior is what's changing. They spend similar or slightly more amount of money, but they're all becoming price-conscious, they're all looking for deals, and they are all going to buy early. Lot of retailers with the supply chain crisis and lot of people bought a lot of inventory and now they are sitting on a lot of inventory. You have this balance of how do you provide the deal so you can capture some of these shoppers who are starting to shop early, but not provide too much discount where you're losing so much money on the site so you still need to achieve your profitability.

So that's the balance, I think, a lot of retailers are really driving through, and even we look at numbers just from Bolt perspective because we have access to a lot of shoppers or a lot of merchants that use Bolt. And we find, even within the cart size, if you look last October to this October, so almost 6% cart size reduction, so around 2.8% items per purchase. It's a slight decrease in the number of items people are purchasing, but they are spending around 5.7% more on average order value. So people are certainly spending more but fewer items, and part of that is because of the increase in price, part of that is because people are buying early. But these kind of trends are very important to watch as retailers, and make sure that you're not left behind while most of the others are playing, including Amazon doing a second Prime Day. 

Nora Ali: Another trend we've seen is investment by social platforms in commerce. That's where I most frequently fall victim to online shopping, when I'm targeted on, say, Instagram or TikTok. But where would you say social commerce lives now? It's been such a focus for the last few years, but there's been a little bit of pullback from some platforms. How does that stand right now?

Maju Kuruvilla: I'm a big believer in social commerce. I believe that's going to be the future, like, people going to a merchant site and buying things, while it'll continue, the newer trend would be more buying things at the point of inspiration. People are going to discover products at different places, whether that's following an influencer, whether that's a livestream, it's an advertisement. So people are going to discover these things. And then the question is, how can you make the buying friction-free at that point? We did a lot of work on this. We launched the Independent in UK, the news company there, and they wanted to get into e-commerce, make commerce enable some of their new sites. We were able to enable that for them and launch it a few weeks ago. And you're starting to see a lot of these trends, but the platforms, as you said, like Instagram and TikTok and a few others caught into this, I don't think it was really thought through end-to-end from a commerce perspective because this is, again, a consumer behavior change.

The idea of buying at that point of inspiration sounds good, but there is a lot of things that needs to come together. It's just like buying online. Back in the day, buying online sounds good, but people only started really buying when you had new things, like you can see reviews, you can see price comparison, you can see that three people bought this in the last one hour. Or you can see that, oh, there's only three more items left—you better buy this. This kind of what you call consumer behavior drivers were important to drive more online sales. Those things need to come into the social commerce as well, and it's going to take some time. I mean, I'm a big believer in this. It is going to be the future, but we are still maybe a year or two ahead of that, and we'll continue to see a lot more innovation around it, and once we have it, it is going to take off, and we continue to invest in that and make sure that we help lead some of that innovation and partner with some of the big players so we can bring that to the market.

Nora Ali: Are you partnered now with any social platforms directly, or just working with the merchants that tend to advertise on those social platforms?

Maju Kuruvilla: We are working with few publishers and continuing to have discussion with the platforms. What you find is some of these platform go in and then they are rethinking their strategy, they are stepping back. So we are continuing to have the conversations, but I want to make sure that we have something concrete before we start doing a lot of experiments around this.

Nora Ali: Maju, before we let you go, we have a couple fun segments. This is called Add to Cart or Nah. So I'm going to give you some innovative products, and you tell me if you would add them to your shopping cart or not. Are you ready?

Maju Kuruvilla: I am.

Nora Ali: Okay. Number one, this is Samsung's Echo TV remote. This is a remote control that's able to collect energy from solar and radio waves. So Samsung has added RF harvesting capabilities that let the remote control preserve its charge by collecting routers' radio waves and converting them to energy. Add to cart, or nah?

Maju Kuruvilla: I'm a big fan of energy and all the innovations around that, so I would add.

Nora Ali: Okay. I would too. Seems like an easy way to conserve energy. Okay. Number two. This one's a little weirder. This is called the 10Minds Motion Pillow 3. This is a smart pillow to prevent you from snoring. It's a little description. Once the AI system in this pillow recognizes the sound of your snoring, the motion pillow, through an air pressure sensor, locates the position of your head, and then one of the four mini airbags slowly inflates to turn your head to the side, opening up your airways to reduce or stop the snoring. Once snoring has stopped, the airbag deflates back to its starting position. Add to cart or nah?

Maju Kuruvilla: I wouldn't add to cart. Maybe my wife might. Sleep is very personal for me and I wouldn't want my pillow to be that smart.

Nora Ali: Yeah. It seems like a lot. Yeah. It also tracks your sleep patterns and presents the data and trends to you via an app, but there's other products that do that without being so obtrusive.

Maju Kuruvilla: Yeah, I feel like a lot of things are being tracked, so at least when I'm sleeping I like to just sleep.

Nora Ali: Yeah, that's a good call. Okay, number three. This one's strange. All right. It's called the Amagami Ham Ham. It's a plushy that nibbles on your finger, so it's designed to recreate the sensation you get when a baby or a pet nibbles on your finger. It's created by Tokyo-based robotic startup Yukai Engineering, and it has two dozen nibbling patterns to keep things fresh. Add to cart or nah?

 Maju Kuruvilla: It sounds very intriguing. Why not? Add to cart.

Nora Ali: Okay, great. You'll add to cart just to kind of have it there; you can think about it; you probably won't check out, but that's totally fine.

Maju Kuruvilla: If they provide a one-click checkout, I might buy it.

Nora Ali: Yes, exactly. Before you can think about it too hard. I love it. Awesome. Well, we will leave things there. This has been such a pleasure. Maju, thank you so much for joining us on Business Casual.

Maju Kuruvilla: Thank you, Nora.

Nora Ali: This is Business Casual and I'm Nora Ali. You can follow me on Twitter @NoraKAli. That's Nora, the letter K, Ali. And I would love to hear from you. If you have ideas for episodes, comments and thoughts on episodes you loved, fun segment ideas, just shoot me a DM and I will do my very best to respond. You can also reach the BC team by emailing, or call us. That number is (862) 295-1135. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And if you like the show, please leave a rating and a review. It really, really helps us. And guess what? We are on YouTube. So if you've ever wondered what I look like, what our guests look like, or what anything else looks like, full episodes are available on our very own YouTube channel. That's Business Casual with Nora Ali. Again, Business Casual with Nora Ali on YouTube.

Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop, Olivia Meade, and Raymond Luu. Additional production, sound design, and mixing by Daniel Markus. Kate Brandt is our fact checker, and AB Silver is our senior booking producer. Sebastian Vega edits our videos. Our VP of multimedia is Sarah Singer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali. Keep it business, and keep it casual.