Jan. 20, 2022

Bringing the Human Back to Leadership

Why being a manager looks a lot different today

What it means to be a manager at work has fundamentally changed. Nora and Scott chat with Morning Brew’s own GM of Education Karen Hebert-Maccaro about how leadership is changing post-pandemic, in the midst of The Great Resignation.

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky
Producer: Bella Hutchins
Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus
Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder
Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop
Director of Audio: Alan Haburchak
VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer

Full transcript for this episode below. 


Karen Hebert-Maccaro: For some of us, we just hit a period of time where there's been a pretty significant discontinuity and I'm referring in specific to the pandemic, but the way that it's affected the way we work and how we must think and behave as leaders is really fundamental. And so even if we are pretty good at things like communicating, for example, or persuasion, or aligning people to feel inspired towards something, now we're doing it in a very different way than we might have been doing it two years ago. And we need to take a step back and think about what it means essentially to be a leader today. Because what it means today is very different.

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew this is Business Casual, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with some of the biggest names in business, asking them the questions you wish you could ask. I'm your host, Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm your other host, Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you stories of how business shapes our lives today and into the future. Now let's get down to business. Hi, Nora.

Nora Ali: Hi, Scott.

Scott Rogowsky: What are we talking about today?

Nora Ali: We're talking about, drum roll please, leadership and what it means to be a leader in a workplace. Ooh, remix. And the workplace has fundamentally changed as we well know. And one of I think our favorite conversations recently was one about the great resignation with Derek Thompson as you recall, Scott. We focused in that conversation on the experiences of workers and employees. And we talked about some big picture economic changes. But today we're going to look at the post-pandemic work landscape from the perspective of leaders, those managers who are tasked with holding it together in the face of all of this.

Scott Rogowsky: So, Nora, yeah, what do you think about leaders and managers? You've worked some jobs where you've reported to higher ups, right?

Nora Ali: I've been a manager before I've had-

Scott Rogowsky: And you've been one. Wow.

Nora Ali: Yeah. I've had my own direct reports. I think what has reflected for me whether a manager is a great manager or just a good manager or an average manager is how they react to people leaving their teams. It goes back to this notion of psychological safety, frankly, that we talked about with our guest, which our listeners will hear in a moment. But if you are a manager who embraces team teammate's urge to change teams, to change jobs, to level up, wherever that may be, I think that really reflects on being a good manager because you care about that person as a human and not necessarily about being possessive of them staying with you and on your team. And so it's hard. And that's why these courses exist, which our wonderful team at Morning Brew offers. So let's get to it, shall we? Our guest is named Karen Hebert-Maccaro, she's the GM of education at Morning Brew, and she writes about leader career development and personal growth. And she joined us for a conversation today about the future of work and leadership. And here it is.

Scott Rogowsky: Here we are with Karen. Karen, welcome to the show.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Thank you so much, Scott. It's nice to join you and Nora. I'm excited to be here.

Nora Ali: Good to see you, Karen. 

Scott Rogowsky: We're excited to talk about what you're doing with Morning Brew as the GM of education, but we want to know about you Karen. You're a former business school professor and executive. Before we dive into the leadership and talk about how you got to your current role here at Morning Brew, where did you begin?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Well, my career is a bit unusual to be honest. I spent a large part of my career as a business school professor, as you just said, teaching MBA and executive education students, mostly leadership, change management, organizational behavior. And then, despite earning my PhD and becoming a professor, I decided to leave academia, which a lot of people thought was a strange choice, but I actually left higher education and went into corporate leadership roles in HR and talent management, because I felt like I wanted to walk the walk a little bit. I wanted to be in the space of doing the things that I was teaching. So I did that for some time. And then I went into learning product design and development in the media industry. And now of course, as you said, I joined Morning Brew as GM of education in August of 2021. So that's a little bit about my career to date.

Nora Ali: Well, congratulations, Karen, a circuitous and successful career, I must say. And I think circuitous careers are becoming more and more commonplace these days. I love that you have an infographic on your personal website that lays out your career path. I don't think I've ever seen that before. With people changing careers more and more, do you have any advice on how to best tell the story of your career, whether you're looking for a new role or just being able to tell that story of who you are?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah. Nora, you probably don't follow me on Twitter, but that's such a great question because I just did a tweet the other day, a thread on career narratives. And I really think it boils down to three things. I think you have to have your impact statements, right? You need to be able to say, this is who I am, this is what I do. I often tell people that, yeah, I've held a whole bunch of different roles, but there's a common thread in my career. And that is whether I was in academia, whether I was in corporate talent management executive positions, or whether I was an ICF certified coach, I like helping individuals and organizations grow. And that's my big impact statement. And then from that, when you tell your narrative, I think it's important to connect that impact statement to skills and attributes that help you be successful with that impact statement. And then finally you have to have your proof points, right? And so I think one way to do that is to tell little short stories that say, hey, this is one of the times where I helped an individual or an organization grow. And so I think if you're going to build out that career narrative, especially if you don't have a linear career, then you do have to think a lot about, hey, what's my impact, what skills do I bring to the table that help me make that impact? And then how can I tell you a story or two that makes it make sense for you?

Nora Ali: Karen, you've been teaching courses in leadership for quite some time. So what are some of those misconceptions that you see frequently about organizational behavior classes or leadership classes, those so-called more qualitative classes. What are those misconceptions that exist? 

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: So I mentioned earlier that I was a business school professor for many years and I mostly taught MBA students and executive MBA students. And these were folks that were taking time off their job for two years to be full-time students. And I taught the required organizational behavior and leadership course. And I will tell you that a lot of new MBA students come in and they're like, I don't care about that for anything, right? What they want to know is finance statistics, the basic of law that they need to know to be successful in their companies, right? They just want to know the hard stuff, the hard skills, that's the stuff that they're really there for and I'm a blow-off class. And I had a student who I am still in contact with today many, many years later, who literally had the guts to tell me that: "Look, I like you, you're great. But this is my easy class. I don't care about it really. I'm not a business school to learn org behavior, that's fluff." Well, it might have been about two years after he graduated, he sent me an email and he said, "Professor Karen, I made a huge mistake. I should have been paying attention to your class above everybody else's class because the technical and tactical and functional skills, no problem. It's the human stuff that's hard in this world of management."

Scott Rogowsky: That's like a lot of my shows, my comedy shows. I'll tell jokes and then a couple years later I get an email, oh, I finally understand what you were saying. I finally laughed two years after the fact. Thank you for telling that joke. It hits people-  

Nora Ali: Delayed gratification.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. I'm happy either way, I'm making an impact.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah. The soft skills get a bad rep sometimes especially in the less experienced of the world, right? Those folks in the programs that I taught that hadn't had a lot of work experience yet, but they do come back and appreciate it after the fact. But I think the misconceptions are around the value of understanding the basic soft skills, like how to communicate, how to influence. They know it's important, but they feel like it takes second seat to things like knowing how to read a balance sheet, which by the way, is an incredibly important skill if you want to be successful in business, to understand the business numbers, but it does matter that you understand politics, that you understand organizational information flow, that you understand how best to influence or persuade someone. And I think those things come with a little bit more experience in the work world. When you rise up into different level of seniority inside your organization, you become less dependent on your technical skill or your functional skill and more dependent about how you can work the system. And frankly, working the system takes a lot of soft skills.

Nora Ali: I imagine a lot of people just assume they have those skills already and can just learn them as they go, because you don't know that you don't have it until you're faced with those situations.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Well, I think that's true. And I also think that for some of us, we just hit a period of time where there's been a pretty significant discontinuity and I'm referring in specific to the pandemic, but the way that it's affected the way we work and how we must think and behave as leaders is really fundamental. And so even if we are pretty good at things like communicating for example, or persuasion, or aligning people to feel inspired toward something, now we're doing it in a very different way than we might have been doing it two years ago. And we need to take a step back and think about what it means essentially, to be a leader today, because what it means today, it's very different.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, let's talk about that. Certainly since the start of the pandemic, there's been this sense among CEOs, managers, corporate leaders, that this will all be over soon, we'll return to normal soon, we'll get back to the office, right? But there's this article in Fast Company recently by David Rock who wrote, "Maybe that's not the most helpful mindset to have when we're dealing with this looming almost existential crisis like a pandemic." I'd love to hear what your take is on what he wrote and maybe the best way leaders can really almost accept their hard realities. 

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah. I think we need to take a step back, slow down, and think about what subtle and not-so-subtle shifts do we have to create in the way we think, and in the way we interact with people to support this new environment, managing a team of people a hundred percent remotely all the time, and some people were doing this before the pandemic, but so many more people are doing this for the first time now, and now we have to adjust and we lag behind. And the person we saw out ahead of the game they didn't predict the future, they were just quicker to respond, to, hey, the game has changed a little bit. How do I adjust? And I think that's huge. And so I, I feel like really, there are three skills that leaders need to focus in on today that maybe were less important, not unimportant, but less important in prior times. And I think one of the them is adaptability for sure.

Scott Rogowsky: The other two?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Creating an environment of psychological safety, which I think is huge today, and then adopting sustainable systemic people strategies. Those are really the three things that I've been thinking a lot about lately as it relates to the work we're doing at Morning Brew to develop leaders and as it relates to the need that companies have for leaders to behave differently, to act differently, to inspire differently in the post-pandemic world. We're not really post it, as you said, we're just living through it now.

Nora Ali: I want to go back to this notion of adaptability as a characteristic that leaders need right now. It's hard to adapt now. Leaders are towing this line of, okay, let's change our protocols because the CDC has changed their guidance and you want to make changes quickly, but you also don't want to act too quickly to disrupt how people are doing their day to day. What makes a successful adapter?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah. And you're right. Adaptability is hard and it's actually cheating by saying, I think adaptability is one of the skills that the leaders of today and tomorrow need, because adaptability is really not one skill, right? It's a meta-competency. It's a whole set of skills that help leaders respond to situations that they've either never encountered before or have rarely encountered and where there's no established playbook. So global pandemic for example, CDC changing rules all the time. I think you really, as a leader who's focused on the power of adaptability need to understand the difference between growth and fixed mindsets. That's popularized by Carol Dweck. But essentially to be fully adaptable, you need to have more of a growth mindset. Sometimes people call this a learning mindset. And that's one that again, getting back to that notion of creating psychological safety, there's some connection here, right? Because when you have a growth mindset, you see a misstep, you internalize a misstep or a mistake or failure as an opportunity to learn, not as, oh, this means I'm not good at this. And why that helps with adaptability is because we are going to make a lot of mistakes in the unknown, right? We're going to take a step to the left when we should have taken a step to the right. And so we need to rebound quickly and pivot in order to be successful and adaptable.

Scott Rogowsky: We got Dweck on deck over here. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll hear more from Karen right after this. And we are back with GM of Morning Brew's education department. This is the digital leadership department, right? Maybe just break that down for us quickly because we didn't really. We glossed over that. What exactly are you doing at Morning Brew with the Eduverse?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Ah, the Eduverse. Thank you. I love that word. So we are attempting to build an alternative to traditional business education. And we're doing that in a variety of ways. But I think the three things that we're really focused on right now is creating hyper-relevant business content, right? So that we can teach people not based on things that happened five or 10 or 25 years ago, but things that are happening right now in business. The second thing we're doing is we are creating these tremendous communities around our courses and experiences because we all know that even those of us who did many degrees, we know one of the most valuable things that come out of those experiences are the people, the network that you meet and you take away from those experiences with. And so we are really working to create a strong community around every single one of our experiences. And then the third thing, frankly, that we're doing is focusing on expert operators as the instructors, meaning we are bringing in people who are today doing the things that they are talking about and teaching about in our programs. And I think that adds to the relevance, but it also gives our students the opportunity to keep their finger on the pulse of people who are making and breaking today inside business. And so I that's what we're doing. We're building these experiences around those three core differentiators to try to accelerate the careers of business professionals in the Morning Brew way. Oh, and we make it fun too because we're Morning Brew, so it has to be fun.

Nora Ali: The only way.

Scott Rogowsky: Fun and affordable.

Nora Ali: Yes.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Fun and affordable, yeah. I didn't even mention affordable. Thanks, Scott. 

Nora Ali: On the second characteristic on building communities with these courses, I feel like that's inherently within one of the courses itself, which is called Building an Audience, one of the skills courses. And the audience for that, that comes to mind is digital creators, influencers, that type. But we're in this world now where having an audience is important really in any role. So who should be the people who are looking at building that audience, if not just creators and influencers and those you automatically think of?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah. It's such a great question, Nora. And I really think that it comes down to what you said, which is that today everybody wants and needs an audience to be successful. Now, not everybody needs multiple hundreds of thousands of people following them on some social media platform in order to do their job effectively. But today our resumes, our past experiences are highlighted in new and different ways than they have ever been highlighted before. And thought leadership, your ability to engage professionally in a more public forum like a Twitter or a LinkedIn is really a part of your digital footprint, your digital resume. And so I think the answer to your question is, yes, of course the Building an Audience course, which is being taught by none other than Alex Lieberman, is a course for content creators or would-be creators, certainly who are trying to reach new audiences, but it's also a course for anybody who's looking to understand how to bring their digital brand, their voice to the world in new ways and it may just be within their networks, but it's a really powerful skill to develop no matter who you are, no matter what level of career you're at.

Scott Rogowsky: And the other skills that are really coming to the forefront now for managers specifically, and it might be challenging in this new environment, giving feedback, enforcing accountability when workers are remote, not in the office. How do you recommend managers take a more inquiry-driven approach? And what does that look like in practice?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah, I think feedback and accountability have always been fundamentals of good leadership, right? It's been that way for as long as I can remember. We've talked about the element of accountability, we've talked about the element of giving actionable feedback. I'd actually take a step back and say, one thing that allows for both of those things is this concept of psychological safety. And the thing about psychological safety is it's not just like this buzzword that people are talking about these days or dirty buzzword that people are talking about these days, it's really about creating a team that feels comfortable admitting that they aren't always perfect, that mistakes happen, that they'll be failures. And that there's a process that's been put in place by the leader or by the team collaboratively that allows people to dissect and learn from those mistakes. And that every person on the team is encouraged to generate ideas or to create innovations that'll help the outcome be better the next time, right? So that they avoid the next failure, learn from the mistake, and move on. Sometimes people think about psychological safety and they think, oh, it means everybody has to be nice to one another at all costs, avoid conflict and only keep the peace, but that's not really what psychological safety is about. Psychological safety is about creating an environment where challenging and debating and holding people accountable and providing feedback, even semi-public feedback, group feedback is acceptable and seen as part of the learning process. Some of the more evolved teams that I've worked with over my career, they are really capable of having direct conversations where they can say to another member of the team, you dropped the ball, you missed the mark, this is where we went wrong. And it doesn't evolve into something really negative. It blossoms into something of like, okay, how do we never make that mistake again? How do we learn from it?

Nora Ali: We're going to take another quick break and more with Karen when we come back.

Scott Rogowsky:

I want to talk about the Great Resignation, Karen, and specifically its impact on leaders because we already spoke to Derek Thompson, an Atlantic staff writer who had a really interesting take on the Great Resignation from an employee perspective. And he told us quitting your job was an expression of optimism because people quit their jobs typically when they think there's another job waiting for them that could be even better. So from the manager's side, it might seem like they might be running scared in some ways, if their employees are all of a sudden leaving, quitting, rethinking their careers, companies are getting hollowed out. But do you see an upside to the great resignation for company leaders and managers?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Well, I do see an upside and that upside is around raising the bar for what it means to lead and develop an organization, a team that is focused on sustainable people strategies. But I think leaders now are being forced to be active about these people strategies that are far beyond things like foosball tables and free snacks. And the reality is that isn't what makes people really love their jobs, that isn't what makes people stay, especially not in a world where there isn't a co-located break room or game room, right? So people are looking to work for people and for companies who create environments that actually enrich their lives in some way, right? Makes them better for the experience of having worked with this organization or this person. And I think there's probably a million ways that that could be done, but I think you have to bring the human back into leadership, recognize and respect that your team has lives outside of work. And I think we need to recognize that things have shifted and we need to encourage people to integrate work and life in a way that works for them. I also know there's been a tremendous amount of research that suggests that one of the most gratifying things that you can do as a leader is give the people who work for you other great people to work with, pay attention to the power of diversity, right? Understand career goals, hire in a way that gives them a really strong group of co-workers to come and do fun things with every day.

Scott Rogowsky: I look at this and it comes back to humanity, Karen. And it's like, so any of these leaders that I've experienced as CEOs, they don't seem human. Managers and leaders think it's fun to have like a icebreaker question, tell us your favorite flavor of ice cream. I mean, those things seem so silly to me and unnecessary. When I look at organizations, I'm a sports fan so I look at how teams draft players. You're putting teams together, you're putting pieces together because you believe in their talent and you've watched them, you see what they do and you've drafted them for a reason. Doesn't it make sense maybe to approach a business in a similar way, where if you're bringing people into, onboarding them into, a group, into an organization, how about you tell the others in that meeting, this is why we hired this person? Why is it so hard for people just to communicate like human beings in these situations?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Silly icebreakers, I call them mandatory fun time. It's a total oxymoron, right? I think you're asking a really important question and I think I might have an answer for it, Scott. And that is people believe that when they assume a leadership position that they're supposed to have all the answers, it's almost like they feel like, okay, I have to start on page one of the how-to leadership book and just go through this thing as opposed to acting more organically, reacting more organically. And I think that more experienced leaders do do that. They figure out that, well, wait a minute, what's really important to everybody is not what Scott's favorite flavor of ice cream is, but what he's going to bring to the team. And you mentioned the sports analogy. When I was the head of talent for a large organization, we actually used the sports analogy when we were talking about complementary team building. And I don't mean that with the I, right? It's with the E, the idea of if I have you on my team and I have Nora on my team, you're each bringing a set of skills that are really, really valuable. Where is the missing skillset? Because that's what I have to go find. And actually hiring is such an incredibly important part of a leader's role. If they do it right it's a really powerful way to augment the team because that team is going to be so much more powerful than the homogeneous team.

Nora Ali: As a leader, how do you balance the professional and the personal? Because those lines are getting more and more blurred, we're all going through a pandemic, mental health is a focus. There might be more personal issues that come up and we're trying to make sure that employees aren't burning out. We also had an episode on that, which is super important. What should leaders do in terms of that balance between remaining professional, but also making sure they're taking care of their employees on a personal level as well?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah, absolutely. Somebody once told me, "friendly not friends" and I thought that that was a really interesting way of putting it. You want to be seen as somebody who cares and who recognizes the realities of the person around you, because we all have those realities, right? But at the same time getting too close to members of your team can create inability to see more objectively the strengths and weaknesses of that person. And so you have to walk this really careful line of caring and being available and being human, but also having just enough distance that you are capable of getting off the dance floor and onto the balcony to see what's happening around. Otherwise, you fail them as a leader. You'll also fail your team if you are too much in the trenches and you never get a chance to step out and look from above. And so it's an important part of the process.

Nora Ali: I love that analogy. Know when to get off the dance floor, Scott.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Know when to get off the dance floor.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. That's my problem. I'm there til they close the place down. The band's packing up, I'm going one more song, come on. And now it's time for the business casual quiz. It is quiz time Karen. Time for mandatory fun here in Business Casual.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Oh no. I'm super nervous. You've already got my position on mandatory fun time.

Scott Rogowsky: Time to get silly. We've got a few questions, just three, but they could be tricky. And I know for a fact that some of them have some trick answers. So today's contestants, it's going to be Nora Ali and Karen Hebert-Maccaro.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I love that you used the French version of that last name.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm going with Hebert.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I love it.

Scott Rogowsky: How do you say it? Hebert?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: You are absolutely correct. And I say, let's go for it. You just made me sound way cooler.

Scott Rogowsky: I mean, it does have a nice cosmopolitan sound to it.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: It does, yeah.

Scott Rogowsky: You got the Italian and the French coming together, it's a beautiful union. Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah, totally.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. So we've been talking about leadership with Karen Hebert-Maccaro. So today's quiz is all about business leaders and CEOs. Are we ready, contestants?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: We're ready. 

Nora Ali: We're ready.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Let's go, Nora.

Nora Ali: Let's do it.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Here we go. Which founder, according to NPR mind you, which founder became the youngest self-made billionaire with her company? Is it A, Kylie Jenner, founder of Kylie cosmetics, B, Sarah Blakely, founder of Spanx, C, Trina Spear, founder of the DTC apparel company FIGS, or D, Amanda Chantal Bacon, founder of Moon Juice?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Is it the Spanx founder?

Nora Ali: I think it's Sarah Blakely as well, because Kylie Jenner was, according to Forbes, the youngest self-made billionaire, but that was controversial for many reasons. So I'm going to agree with Karen and say Sarah Blakely.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, you are both correct.

Nora Ali: Yes.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes. Sarah Blakely, then 41-year-old founder of Spanx in 2012. We all know Spanx.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Her story is amazing, absolutely amazing.

Scott Rogowsky: We all wear it, right? Yeah. You alluded to it, Nora, but Kylie Jenner was kicked off the Forbes billionaire list two years after being named the world's youngest self-made billionaire. Turns out they might have overinflated their revenue there.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: That is awkward.

Scott Rogowsky: Who would have thought the Jenners and the Kardashians would do anything untoward like that? All right, question two. Former Twitter CEO Dick Costolo recently spoke with journalist, Kara Swisher on an episode of the New York Times podcast Sway. He described a meeting he had with Jeff Bezos in 2009. What advice did Bezos allegedly give him at this meeting? Is it A, don't hate the player, hate the game, B, be yourself, C, if you'll love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life or D, everything happens for a reason?

Nora Ali: Oh, are we going for the same answer again? 

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I was going to with C, Nora. Is that what you were going for?

Nora Ali: I was going to talk about C. I hear that a lot. And does Jeff Bezos, did he love his job so much that that's something that he would say? Probably.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I think he does today.

Nora Ali: Yeah, he loves his job today very much. Going into space and being rich. Yeah, I'm going to go with C. I think we both agree.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, actually the answer is E, divorce your wife at the peak of your powers. No, it actually is B, be yourself.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Well, I wouldn't have seen that one coming. 

Scott Rogowsky: Right.

Nora Ali: That's so simple.

Scott Rogowsky: And here it is here. Here's the full quote. "Be yourself and don't try to run this company the way the last person or the person before that, or the person before that ran it." Would you agree, Karen?

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: So he basically saying be human, which means he's reverse-quoting me, right?

Scott Rogowsky: Right, exactly. He must have taken your course.

Nora Ali: Karen said it first.

Scott Rogowsky: He learned from the best. Okay. So now you both got that one wrong. So now you're still tied one for one. This is the tie-breaker, the rubber question here. Three months after the sudden death of longtime Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner, the toy company named its new chief executive, Chris Cox. Cox previously served as chief operating officer leading which Hasbro franchise? A, My Little Pony, B, Peppa Pig, C, GI Joe, or D, Dungeons and Dragons?

Nora Ali: I have honestly no clue.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I don't either, but I feel like this is one that's good for guessing.

Nora Ali: Yeah.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I'm going to go with Peppa Pig because there's just been so much Peppa Pig fandom in the last few years that I could see that being a good thing.

Nora Ali: We love Peppa Pig. I'm just going to, for the sake of competition, go with a different answer. I'll pick A, My Little Pony.

Scott Rogowsky: Well, it looks like we are going to have a tie because you both got that one wrong as well.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Oh, Nora, not our day.

Scott Rogowsky: Cox had been a part of the Hasbro team since 2016 working primarily with the company's Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, and Duel Masters franchises. Under his leadership, Wizards of the Coast has become one of Hasbro's top revenue drivers, has more than doubled since Cox took the helm, and generated $1 billion in revenue in 2021.

Nora Ali: Wow.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. So, Karen, I guess that's how we're going to wrap it up with you today. Thanks for your insight. Thanks for playing the quiz. I hope you had some fun.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: I had a blast. Thanks for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: I want you to tell us quickly if people are listening and they want to maybe enroll in the Morning Brew Education curriculum, where can they go to find more about you and the courses you're teaching? 

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Yeah, they should absolutely check out learning.morningbrew.com, which is our brand-new website. And you can check out all the different courses that we're bringing there. And you can find us on Twitter @LearningBrew. 

Nora Ali: Check it out. Thank you so much, Karen. It was great.

Karen Hebert-Maccaro: Thank you.

Scott Rogowsky: And now, BC listeners, we want to hear from you. We love hearing from you, and we want to hear from you about a specific episode coming up about Beyond Meat and the plant-based meat business. We'd love to know what you think about plant based meat. Have you tried it? Do you love it like I do? Are you weirded out by it like some of my ex-girlfriends are? Do you think it's delicious? We want to hear it all. So send us an email at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter @bizcasualpod, that's B-I-Z casual pod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave a voice on our website, businesscasual.fm, or give us a ring and leave us an old fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are excited to get to know our listeners old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual is produced by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production sound design and mixing by Daniel Marcus. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio at Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. And hey, if you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you go to get your podcasts. We don't care where you go to get them as long as you're listening to it, subscribing to it, giving us ratings and reviews. You can give us ratings on Spotify now. That is a new feature for 2022. They got stars. Give us the stars. We want your stars.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.