So much of business is clinical, scientific even—balance sheets either add up or they don’t. But in the housing market, emotions are as important as 1s and 0s.
So much of business is clinical, scientific even—balance sheets either add up or they don’t. But in the housing market, emotions are as important as 1s and 0s.
And today, many of us are walking an emotional tightrope made all the tighter by the fact that we’re staring down the barrel of a recession. So how do we understand what comes next for the residential real estate industry—a space characterized by physical, in-person dealings—when we’re mostly homebound and mostly short on disposable income?
This week on Business Casual, we get the answer from Barbara Corcoran—star of ABC’s Shark Tank, real estate icon, and (apparently) budding philosopher.
In Part I of our interview with Barbara, she walks us through the intricacies of the housing market today, from buyer to seller to broker. Curious about prices? Wondering what virtual home tours are like? Barbara’s got you.
And she’s serving up the insight in several flavors:
Listen now. We’ll cover the commercial market in depth (yes, we’ll talk about WeWork) with Barbara in Part II of the interview, out next from Business Casual. Subscribe to make sure you don’t miss it.
Kinsey Grant, Morning Brew business editor and podcast host [00:00:06] Hey, everybody, and welcome to Business Casual, the podcast from Morning Brew, answering your biggest questions in business. I'm your host and Brew business editor, Kinsey Grant. And now, let's get into it. [sound of a ding]
Kinsey [00:00:18] Well, actually, before we get into it, you should stop and go listen to our last episode. On Tuesday, we dropped an interview with Edith Cooper, whose CV and business and financial services honestly sounds made up, it's so good. She was the head of Human Capital Management at Goldman Sachs for more than two decades. Plus, she's a board member at Etsy and at Slack. And she's the co-founder of the personal and professional development startup Medley.
Kinsey [00:00:42] So Edith and I talked about workplace diversity in our last episode of Business Casual, why it matters and what both corporations and individuals can be doing to make sure that equity of opportunity is more practice than it is theory. If you haven't listened to the episode, go listen now and then come back to this one. If you have listened to the episode, first of all, thank you. You are the best. And second of all, I hope you learned something, because I definitely did. I mean, actually, I learned a lot of things. But one of the most pressing lessons that I walked away with from that conversation with Edith was that there's a lot we're not talking about that we need to be talking about more, and prioritizing more.
Kinsey [00:01:19] Workplace diversity needs to be a metric as important as profit or margins. We've got gobs of studies that I even referenced in that episode showing us that businesses that prioritize diversity report stronger financial returns. If you want to make more money, hire a more diverse workforce. That's something we've been working on at Morning Brew. I was employee number five when I joined about two years ago, and now we are closing in on 50 people. But, I've been really encouraged by how our hiring priorities and our culture priorities have changed in the last 24 or so months. And a huge part of those changes for the better is because of my guest today, Morning Brew's Head of People Operations, our HR queen, Kate Noel. Kate, welcome to Business Casual.
Kate Noel, Head of People Operations at Morning Brew [00:02:02] Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Kinsey [00:02:04] I'm really excited to talk to you, first of all, because I just love talking to you. [Noel laughs] You're such an encouraging person in our workplace and in our lives in general, I would feel comfortable saying. But you also have a really cool background in HR. You've worked at many a well-known company—Moody's, InterContinental, Daily Beast—before you came to Morning Brew. And that's part of why I wanted to bring you in specifically to talk about this conversation I had with Edith and the lessons that we can walk away with it from, you know, workplace diversity, hiring, creating culture, because as Edith communicated in this last episode, it doesn't matter the size of a business or the size of even a singular person trying to make a difference.
Kinsey [00:02:42] Any person, any individual, any business can affect change, necessary change that that we need to start talking more about. So today, I want to get the perspective of someone who spent what is so far a career thinking about workplace makeups. So we're gonna talk about diversity and inclusion and what they look like in real life instead of just on paper, because we've seen a lot of statements just on paper in the last couple of days. So I want to get into more of the nitty-gritty, how it actually works, how these things happen, and what it's like heading up people ops a smaller business instead of, say, Goldman has 35,000-some odd employees. [Kate chuckles].
Kinsey [00:03:15] So, to start, I want to understand just that. How do you think that your efforts to create an inclusive culture at Morning Brew, a smaller startup-type company, and create a more diverse workplace with better opportunities for everybody, regardless of gender, race, background? How do you think that that's a different ballgame than, say, managing those same priorities at a larger company like a Goldman Sachs?
Kate [00:03:38] Yeah, I think the opportunity is a bit different when it's a smaller organization, especially if it's a startup, it's because you're creating that culture. You're in a foundational period where you're putting processes in place that may not have been there before, and making sure that those processes have been vetted and is working out in the best way possible—it seems like a more organic result. And because it's a smaller sample size, again, comparing us being at 50 and other legacy or traditional organizations that may be in the hundreds of thousands, it's a bit different.
Kate [00:04:10] And for me, I feel like that's what made me so excited with joining Morning Brew. It's not too often that you get a chance, as a people operations or an HR professional, to come into a business that's building that culture and making sure I get to put my own imprint and what that process looks like. Coming into a bigger organization, you're oftentimes finding the culture and trying to make it work for you. And unfortunately, historically, that hasn't always meant that, you know, black voices or people of color's perspective have been a part of that DNA or that culture. So it's often a more of an uphill battle with trying to change that culture as opposed to just creating it.
Kinsey [00:04:48] So, Kate, this idea that it might be an uphill battle to create a more inclusive or an all-around better culture at a larger company is something I find pretty compelling, especially in light of all of the stories we read all the time about these startups, especially in Silicon Valley, that don't implement the right culture. So how do we reconcile the idea that in some places it is the all-white boys' club with the idea that there's so much opportunity for smaller startups to create the kind of world that everybody can work in?
Kate [00:05:21] Yeah, I think it's important that for those type of organizations or, you know, the white boys' club, as you said, is having the right people in the right seats at the right time. I think that a lot of startups or smaller organizations see HR as a luxury as opposed to a necessity. And they feel like it's something that should come later on down the line, where they want to be viewed as a more sophisticated organization.
Kate [00:05:45] But I challenge those people in realizing that the same way you think it's important to have a CEO or a co-founder or someone in sales and someone who's heading up whatever your product that you're launching to the masses, an HR person should be at the very beginning and a part of that table. And it's typically the HR person that's holding everyone accountable to making sure those initiatives are being executed. They're serving as the moral compass. And, of course, everyone has the right intention.
Kate [00:06:11] But typically, if you're finding the right HR person, which I also encourage—it should be someone who is of a diverse background, whether it be racially or by gender identity—if you're bringing that person in, it makes that job that much easier for whoever else is around the table, because, again, you're starting from the very beginning of what your culture should look like.
Kinsey [00:06:31] Yeah, you have that North Star to make sure that all of the initiatives that are put forth, the values that are created even just within a team, are all following the same compass that that person is setting. It brings to mind something that Edith was talking about in this conversation, that it's about prioritizing things. You know, we should be prioritizing hiring HR professionals from day one or from day two. But so often these companies are not like you're saying, it becomes something that's a luxury down the line when you want to feel like, quote unquote, a real company.
Kate [00:07:00] Right.
Kinsey [00:07:01] One of the things that we talked about with Edith was that having a diverse workforce and creating a workplace that can work for everybody needs to be a priority, as important as making sure you are reporting profit for your investors. That if we thought about diversity and inclusion, the way that we thought about being in the red or being in the black at the end of the quarter, we would be living in a very different world. What are your thoughts on that?
Kate [00:07:24] Oh, absolutely. I completely agree with that. You cannot have a workplace that's giving the highest level of output and efficiency if they're not feeling motivated and cared for. That's where the empathy part comes from. Anyone and everyone wants to work in a place where they feel like they have the tools to do their job. And outside of their job function, that they're being taken care of. So it's always easy to find diversity. Yes, we'll put processes in place. We'll partner with diversity recruiting firms and do our bias trainings that everyone's kind of scrambling [chuckles] to do now if they haven't done so already.
Kate [00:07:58] But what are the things that are making people feel included in those conversations in the workplace day to day? And when people feel motivated and they feel taken care of and they feel like their differences are being celebrated, of course, they'll work harder. Of course, they'll be more excited to think outside of the box. They're getting a high from working at their company.
Kate [00:08:19] And I've seen it for myself personally, with speaking with people one-on-one and also seeing it with myself personally, where being in a place where I feel like my voice is being valued and there's different things in place to make me feel celebrated, that loyalty—it goes leaps and bounds. And obviously people say millennial generation don't tend to be as loyal as our predecessors. But I think that this is a tool where we can really test that, and perhaps we haven't had enough data for it because it's something that, like we mentioned, hasn't been made a priority.
Kate [00:08:50] But I think that's what's going to be the change moving forward. Companies are now realizing the voice is too loud to be ignored. And so we'll have the research to prove that, which is something people of color have known for such a long time. We just never had a chance to have our voices heard about that.
Kinsey [00:09:03] Right. And another interesting part of this conversation is that there are times when people who are part of these marginalized groups feel that they can't be their entire selves at work, which I think that maybe it was my own inherent privilege being a white woman that I didn't recognize. You know, obviously, you don't tell the same jokes and you might not say the same things that you would with your friends.
Kate [00:09:24] Yeah.
Kinsey [00:09:24] But to say, and Edith communicated this as well, that there were times in her life where she couldn't go to work and feel like she could express herself fully, was really a wake-up call to me. That this is something anybody can understand, that it would be uncomfortable to hide part of who you are at work, regardless of who that full person is. And I think it's something we need to spend a little more time recognizing, really letting that sink in, especially for people who are speaking from a place of privilege—that might not be a thought for them every day. And it is for some of our coworkers.
Kate [00:09:54] Yeah, it definitely is. It's called code switching, where you feel you have to have one type of personality when you're with your friends and your family and the people that you're most comfortable with, but once you step foot into the workplace, you find your voice getting a little bit higher because you don't want the low range of your voice to be seen as aggressive or too passionate. Being a woman of color—I'm black—oftentimes, working in certain industries, I've been told my natural hair is not considered appropriate for the workplace.
Kate [00:10:22] And so I felt like I had to wear certain hairstyles, keep my hair straight, keep it, quote unquote, polished in order for me to be considered for a role that's client-facing or guest-facing. It's very much a thing and also a thing where, as a person of color, I was taught I always have to work twice as hard in order for me to get half of what my white peers would have. And that's something that's often taught from a very, very young age, from school, from elementary school, where, you know, you need to have straight A's in order for your teacher to pay attention to you, even if the other kids in the class who are white are averaging far less than you are.
Kate [00:11:02] So it's something that definitely exists. And for me personally, I think I'm in a really lucky and blessed space where I am a black woman in human resources. And I know that I serve oftentimes like the first point of contact for people going through their interviewing process or me [indistinct] onboarded people who are in the workplace seeing that I've been very intentional, kind of recently, with making sure I feel like I do not have to code switch. The way I would talk to my friends is the way I would speak to my peers.
Kate [00:11:30] Obviously, my resumé and CV speaks for itself. I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to hold certain conversations and hold space in certain types of rooms. But if I do want to show up in a boardroom with my natural hair, that's OK. And if I take up that space with my hair, that's fine. If I feel like I'm—my name, you know, there's people who have names that are not traditionally American and they feel on their resume they have to change it in order to be considered. I've seen that so many times, and that's outside of the black culture. It's just for minorities in general. It exists.
Kate [00:12:00] And I think that people who are in the position, such as myself or other executives or managers, to take that stance to shy away from that because people are watching. And I've heard so many different times, like, wow, I never thought that I would see an HR person with their natural hair or like, oh, my God, you're so funny. You're like the coolest HR person I've ever chatted with. And it makes me sad sometimes to have to hear that, because that means there's not enough of it in the workplace. But I think that it helps with pushing that narrative forward, that you can be yourself and still be very much professional, be very much the top of your game. And again, just adding a different perspective into the workplace.
Kinsey [00:12:39] Absolutely. This also, though, brings up the idea that—and I brought this up with Edith as well—that the responsibility sometimes for starting these conversations falls on black people more than it does on white people or on people of color in general. You know, that there's a lot of educating to be done. And you are the one who is educating me right now, and I'm grateful for that. But also, there comes a certain point where this can't just be on you. So talk to me more about this concept of tokenism in the workplace.
Kate [00:13:09] Yeah, I mean, a lot of these places, if you are having the conversation about race and equality, it's probably because they don't have enough people or the percentages they should be representing in the workplace. So tokenism is when you feel like you're the only person who is representing that group, whether it be based on race or sexual orientation or identity or whatever have you. I hear that conversation a lot. It's quite possible to feel like a burden with being the token. But I take it from myself as a sort of responsibility.
Kate [00:13:42] I have no problem being that person in certain spaces because I know it's a responsibility that I took on with, you know, signing up to be an HR person. And I know there's also some people who say, look, listen, like I'm already exhausted by what's going on on the outside. The last thing I want to do is be turned into the black sensei at my job to teach everyone how to do it. And so that's why I think it's also important to use people on the outside to bring their experience and expertise on how things should be done.
Kate [00:14:09] So when it comes to certain trainings, yes, if you do have a black HR person or people office person facilitate those trainings, that'd be great. But I think it adds a different level of value if you find someone to be an external trainer to come in and facilitate that training. That takes some of that responsibility off of that person who is internally within your community—sorry, with your company. But I think it's also important to make sure that you're having a direct conversation with whoever that black person is in the organization to see if they are comfortable with doing it.
Kate [00:14:39] And not to assume that because they're black and because they're working, that they want to be their go-to person. That's technically not their job to be that person to educate you. The tools are there. You realize there is a problem. It's the organization's responsibility to find the tools to do that job. But, if I do sign up, me being the black person, to say, I don't mind being that person for you, let me be a voice box and teach you how to do it, which I fall into that category. I love having these conversations and is one of the reasons why I decided to pursue people operations.
Kate [00:15:10] Use that to your benefit as well, but definitely keep that in mind as people continue to move forward, to not place an unnecessary burden to the person who is black within your community, because not only do they have to deal with seeing what's going on outside and also at work doing your day-to-day function, now they're having to teach you why it's not right to say this or why it's not right to do that. And oftentimes mental check-ins are not given for those people. So just keep those things in mind.
Kinsey [00:15:36] Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway from this conversation is just ask more questions. It's never gonna hurt to ask a question, to ask somebody how they're feeling, to talk about culture or the decisions that a company is making. Just ask. If you get fired for asking a question, you probably didn't want to work at that workplace to begin with, you know, so poke and prod and don't be afraid to voice what you need to voice, regardless of how you're coming into this conversation.
Kinsey [00:16:03] All right. So we're going to take a short break to hear from our partner. And when we get back, talk more about the specifics of ensuring that these responsibilities are actually upheld and accountability sets with the right people. So a quick break and we'll be right back. —
Kinsey [00:16:19] And now back to the conversation with Morning Brew's very own Kate Noel. Kate, excited to continue this conversation. We've talked a little bit about workplace diversity in sort of these broad-strokes ways. You know, who should the responsibility fall on? Who should we look to for leadership in terms of ensuring workplace diversity and inclusion? Let's talk a little bit more about the actual mechanics of how this happened.
Kinsey [00:16:43] So I think a logical place to start would be on the hiring side. What can a business do right now to make sure that they are considering these aspects of diversity and inclusion and equity of opportunity from day negative-five when they're trying to find the person to fill a position? What's the hiring process look like?
Kate [00:17:02] I think the mechanics behind it is one, making sure that you're finding the right sources. Obviously, what was being used before is not working. So if you're finding yourself not finding enough people of color, enough people who identify having a diverse background, then you need to do the work in researching who are the places and partners we need to reach out to and make ourselves available to. And I think comparing the climate now to what that conversation may have looked two or three years ago, there isn't an excuse for anyone at this point to say that they don't know where to reach out to.
Kate [00:17:38] So if it's you're reaching out to HBCUs—historically black colleges and universities—where you can create partnerships with having internships, having entry level roles that you can post to their specific job boards. And again, if it's not in recruiting, you can certainly have it for just like brand awareness or mixers. So if you feel like your brand is not talked about enough in certain communities, you can have a partnership meeting where you're having a resume review with the incoming class for 2021 with an HBCU.
Kate [00:18:09] You can go to certain conferences, job fairs, put yourself out there. There isn't a reason why that can't happen. Same things with certain diversity job boards. It [indistinct] you far less to make sure you have the right type of job descriptions on these job boards, seeing what that output and what that value would look like. Once you find that right talent who also happens to be a person of diversity, it's leaps and bounds.
Kate [00:18:33] You almost cannot even put that to an actual figure because you just get so much more from getting that person coming through the door. And then also just having partnerships with people in business that can come into your organization, that can do lunch-and-learns, who can do speaking engagements. As you're widening up your network, there will be more word of mouth. And I think obviously in the beginning of any company, starting word of mouth tends to be within your own community. And so that's why you tend to find the same people who look just like you.
Kate [00:19:02] And again, just looking at how many businesses are being started by people of color in comparison to people who are white, you find more of those white organizations just sourcing their white friends or their white colleagues. And so that's how they grow. And they've missed the mark of finding people outside of themselves. But again, if the company is opening up their network, they're reaching out to thought leaders in these spaces who happen to be people of color, identify with having a certain gender identity or sexual orientation, or even with military background or people who identify as being disabled.
Kate [00:19:32] Anyone who falls under Title Seven and can find something that they relate to in that, is beneficial. So then once you find those people, you hold your interviewing process, do your phone screenings, do your first round of interviews, having projects. And I think that as you're going through the entire recruiting process, it's important that you're tracking the number of people who are applying to your jobs, tracking the amount of people who are going through your first rounds of phone screenings or the different stages and recruitment. It's often seen that if you're not hiring the person who is of a diverse background, then it can seem that the process has failed.
Kate [00:20:06] And I actually think that that's not true. I think the issue that a lot of companies have had before is that they haven't even started with recruiting those people and even considering them. So if we haven't even considered them, how can we expect for us to have the end result of having someone who is diverse? So if we're showing to the company and to our readers or to whoever is, you know, in the market receiving our product, that we may not have had the person who is as diverse as the extended offer, but we had 50% of our applicants be identified as a person of color or a person of diverse background—that shows that we're doing the work.
Kate [00:20:43] And obviously, the higher percentage of people who identify as a minority, the higher of a chance you're going to have someone who lands the job and is now a part of your workforce. So having diversity reports too, and doing an audit, whether it's quarterly and, of course, doing it at the very beginning before you start these new recruiting initiatives for diversity, is extremely important. And I think it's actually something that people tend to miss when it comes to recruiting efforts. We need to be able to report back to ourselves and to others, like how we can do better. And how are these numbers missing the mark?
Kinsey [00:21:16] Right. And Kate, I'm so glad that you answered that question with such specificity. Because I feel like so often a cop-out answer for a lot of people in leadership and business right now is, well, it's an undertaking to try to solve systemic racism. Well, no one's trying to get you to solve systemic racism right now.
Kate [00:21:31] Right.
Kinsey [00:21:31] We're trying to get you to start taking steps. And those are actual, tangible steps that can be taken with relative ease to ensure that the future looks different than the past. And so I'm glad that we went through and you explained some of those in a little bit more detail. One that I find particularly interesting personally is just the conversation around education and recruiting from HBCUs. Edith brought to mind for me the fact that the pipeline problem is a conversation that's had a lot in part of talking about diversity and inclusion.
Kinsey [00:22:03] But is that even really the problem? And to some people, they would say no. But Edith brought up the interesting point that racism isn't just in the workforce. It's not just police brutality. There's also a racial gap in education. There's a racial gap in healthcare. And all of these things do contribute to a person even getting to the point of being recruited for a job. I think that trying to focus on furthering the educational opportunities and the funding for education for people who identify as coming from a diverse background is incredibly important, and even just jotting down some thoughts when I was speaking with her about it.
Kinsey [00:22:39] There's a lot that can be done. You're not just going to these colleges and recruiting on campus, but thinking about the endowment size for Harvard vs—I'm from Tallahassee, Florida. FAMU, A&M University, is a historically black university in Tallahassee. The endowment is $113 million. And Harvard's endowment is $40+ billion. That shouldn't be the case, right? [laughs]
Kate [00:23:03] I agree with that. And that's literally it. I mean, we're playing a game. And when I say we, I mean, you know, black people are people of minority. We're playing a game of catch-up. So, for people to say, oh, it's such an undertaking—imagine us, you know, [laughs] and that's why we always feel like we always have to work twice as hard because there's so many obstacles from even just going to school to getting to the place where you are having your resumé being brought to someone's table to be considered. It's so much more than that.
Kate [00:23:30] And I think it's when people say it's such an undertaking, there's no way we can reverse systemic racism. It's like, no. To your point, no one is asking you to do that. And the fact that that's like the response to that question just shows that they're really not digging deep and they're just looking at it at surface value. But unfortunately, to your point, there are groups of people who do not have that same type of luxury or privilege to be considered in the same way their white counterparts would be. So what are we going to do to ensure that they are given the advantage to be at least uplifted?
Kate [00:24:04] So when they are being put against other candidates who do not look like them, they are given that same type of chance. And there's a lot of work to be done. And obviously, as an organization, it can seem like a drop in the bucket. But the way to always think about it is, six months ago, that drop didn't exist. And if everyone can do their part, whether they may feel like it's a small thing, when you look holistically, it's such a big impact and perhaps we won't see it in my generation, which is—I'm 29.
Kate [00:24:31] So for me to even say I perhaps won't see it in my generation, but perhaps I'll see it in the generation behind me or you know, even further back than that. But this is something that's been going on for 400 years. This is just something that white America is now just paying attention to because the variables are a bit different this time around. But it's been in existence for a very long time.
Kinsey [00:24:52] Yeah. I think a useful point of the conversation with Edith when I was speaking with her was that she made the point of saying that when her parents were in school, they went to segregated schools. And to think that that would be the reality today is crazy. You know, obviously things have changed tremendously since then. And it was almost like emotional for me to think about what, if I have kids, what my kids' lives will look like, and hopefully they'll be very different from mine in ways that are better. Just like my life has been different from my parents own life. So that gave me a little bit of optimism.
Kinsey [00:25:25] And I think part of that optimism also comes from today feeling a little different. So I'm curious to hear your perspective. In light of these widespread protests that we've had following George Floyd's death against police brutality and systemic racism and having these conversations that have needed to be had, to your point for 400 years, does it feel different right now to you?
Kate [00:25:46] It does. And I think even that conversation—I obviously don't know Edith's background—but, you know, even the black experience is not monolithic. I am, you know, I identify as Haitian American. I'm first generation. So my mom and dad, they were immigrants that came from Haiti. My mother didn't even have an eighth grade education. My dad, middle school, maybe, at best. But the fact that I'm able to be born here and get an education—that experience alone is going to be different than my daughter.
Kate [00:26:17] But I think that overall, just from the different [indistinct] of being a person who is black in the States, things are definitely getting better, but I don't think we should rest on that and become complacent. It's getting better because it's getting to a point where people are realizing we matter. That's like the bare minimum. I think that now the chant shouldn't be black lives matter. By the time my daughter steps into this scene, it should be, you know, black lives are — hmm, what's the best way to put it? I think it should be black lives are equal. Because right now we're just asking for black lives matter from a sense of humane—like of being a human.
Kate [00:26:53] Like we should not be considered the same type of numbers we were considered back in slavery times, where we were one-eighth of a person when we're being put down on a piece of paper. But a smattering is just the surface. I think that once people realize that we matter, and obviously the black community has known this all along, it will be a different kind of conversation of like, now how can we make sure that we're on the same playing field and make sure these things are in place for generations to come after us?
Kinsey [00:27:18] Mm hmm. Matter is the minimum. I've seen it all over social media, and it's true. Like, let's actually let that sink in for a second. Matter should be the minimum. And it's been, I think, an eye-opening experience talking more about this, not just on this podcast, but just in the world in general. Having more conversations about this has been incredible. And then I think something I'm really grateful for—for people like you and like Edith to take the time to educate others around you—is not lost on me. So [Kate chuckles] thank you. I want to say thank you —
Kate [00:27:50] You're very welcome.
Kinsey [00:27:50] For all that you've done for Morning Brew and for our listeners listening to Business Casual. So thank you very much, Kate.
Kate [00:27:56] You're very welcome. The pleasure's mine. I'm glad I could be a part of this conversation. It's my form of activism in the workplace. So I'm glad I'm able to do it on this platform.
Kinsey [00:28:11] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Business Casual. This show has covered a lot in the last quarter—a pandemic, a recession, widespread protests, and that's just the beginning. So we're going to do a quarter in review in the coming weeks. I want to know what you want to hear in this quarter in review. What do you think the biggest news stories of the last three months have been for the business world? Email me your thoughts, ideas, questions, comments, and concerns at Kinsey@morningbrew.com. That's k i n s e y @morningbrew.com. And I'll see you next time. [sound of a ding]