May 23, 2022

1-Up Your Career with Nintendo’s Retired President & COO Reggie Fils-Aimé

Bet you can’t top Reggie’s high score on Super Mario World.


Nora and Scott chat with Reggie Fils-Aimé, who served as President & COO of Nintendo for 16 years. During his tenure, Reggie helped bring the Nintendo DS, the Wii, and the Nintendo Switch to the global marketplace. He discusses why he doesn’t attribute his success to luck, his business methodology that made waves at Nintendo, and how he leaned into his identity as the first American and African American President and COO for the Japanese company. Reggie also just published a book titled, DISRUPTING THE GAME: From the Bronx to the Top of Nintendo. Presented by Grayscale. 

 

Hosts: Nora Ali & Scott Rogowsky

Fact Checker: Holly Van Leuven 

Producer: Bella Hutchins 

Video Editors: Mckenzie Marshall and Christie Muldoon

Production, Mixing & Sound Design: Daniel Markus

Music: Daniel Markus & Breakmaster Cylinder

Senior Producer: Katherine Milsop

VP, Head of Multimedia: Sarah Singer 

 

Full transcript for this episode below. 

Transcript

Nora Ali: From Morning Brew, this is Business Casual. The podcast reveals the unexpected business story behind everything. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky. Nora and I are here for your ears, bringing you conversations with creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and why we should care. Now, let's get down to business.

Scott Rogowsky: Are we gamers, Nora?

Nora Ali: I think at this point we are. We've had a lot of conversations on gaming, huh?

Scott Rogowsky: We have. I don't know if this is like about gaming, but it's certainly gaming adjacent.

Nora Ali: Leadership in gaming.

Scott Rogowsky: Leadership. That's right. This is one of those episodes that, it's perfect, because we're a business podcast. We want to talk to business leaders, creators, thinkers, and innovators who can tell us what it all means and by the way, why we should care. And this is a guy who can certainly tell us what it all means, but he is also like you and me. He loves video games and he always has. I was a Sega guy back in the day. What was your game system of choice?

Nora Ali: I mean, my favorite game as a kid was Sonic the Hedgehog on Sega, right. But I also of course played Mario.

Scott Rogowsky: Mario Brothers of course, yes.

Nora Ali: Super Mario. We all did. I did try to buy a Nintendo Switch recently within the last few months. But I made the mistake of trying to buy it right after the holidays or maybe it was leading up to the holidays, but they were sold out almost everywhere. And I bought one, I got my hands on one, and then it got canceled a few weeks later. So I'm still looking for a Nintendo Switch in case anyone wants to help a gal out. Anyway you know who's got a lot of friends in gaming? Our guest.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. He can get you a Switch, I bet.

Nora Ali: Yes. And his name is Reggie Fils-Aime. He served as president and COO of Nintendo USA for 16 years and helped bring the Nintendo DS, the Wii, the Nintendo 3DS, Wii U, and guess what, the Nintendo Switch to the global marketplace. In his new book called Disrupting the Game: From The Bronx To The Top Of Nintendo, Reggie details his journey from the Bronx as the son of Haitian immigrants, to the top of Nintendo, as one of the most powerful names in the gaming industry. And the first American and African American president and Chief Operating Officer for the company. We'll get to our conversation with Reggie after this quick break.

Scott Rogowsky: Reggie, thanks for being here. Fantastic book you have out now, Disrupting the Game: From The Bronx To The Top Of Nintendo. Let's talk about the Bronx. Let's start there because that's where you grew up, right? And from what I know about the Bronx during that time, I mean, the Bronx is burning. The summer of '77. These were crazy times back then. Can you talk about what the experience was like for you personally?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I was born in '61, moved out of the Bronx in '69. So wasn't there for the mid and late '70s. But I will share this. The tenement building that I lived for those first eight years, my family and I ended up going back about three years or so after we left the area. So this would've been the early '70s now. And I kid you not, the windows were blown out, it looked like there had been a fire in the building. So, certainly between the time that I left and three, four years later, it continued to deteriorate. And look, the fact of the matter is that the Bronx today has the congressional district with the greatest amount of poverty, the greatest amount of food insecurity. So it continues to be a tough area. And I see that as I go back to do mentoring and to spend time with young people in the area, it's an area that certainly instilled a level of grit and resilience in me. And I see it in kids today.

Nora Ali: Reggie, you open your book writing about the concept of luck. And it's a question that a lot of successful executives get, is how much do you attribute your success to luck? But tell us why you think it's important to recognize that maybe it was not luck and you put yourselves in those positions to become successful.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I think that many people who are successful, especially those who come from diverse backgrounds, they have that nagging thought in the back of their head of, was I just lucky? Was it all just the bit of serendipity? And I really do believe in this concept, that you make your own luck. You drive your own journey with this combination of capability and opportunity. Meaning you need to be capable. You need to have the skills, you need to have all of those elements through training and schooling. And then that situation needs to be there where you can grab it, where you can showcase your skills and you can move forward. So, the old philosopher Seneca defined a loose collection of those words as luck. But I wanted to be clear that, certainly in my case, it wasn't luck. I wasn't just lucky. It really was putting myself in these situations where my capability could meet the opportunity at hand.

Scott Rogowsky: And you were instilled some very valuable lessons from your parents, Haitian immigrants, coming over in the '50s. We've talked to several children of immigrants or first, second generation. And there seems to be a common thread here. There is that focus on schooling and being dedicated and focused on a goal and a career. What were some of those lessons your parents taught you in terms of doing the right thing and setting your sights high?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I'll focus on two stories. First in this thought of being focused and the straight-and-narrow path. My father worked two jobs in order to create the pool of funds for us to afford a small house out on Long Island and to be able to leave that tough Bronx neighborhood. And I watched him work so hard. His only day off would be on Sundays. And that instills something in you when you're young and you're watching your parent just work so hard, knowing that it's for the good of the family. And then the other story I would highlight, and I talk about this in the book, is that the simple pleasure for my father on Sunday mornings, was to be able to read the New York Daily News. And my brother and I would go off to the bodega, a couple streets down from our tenement building, to go get that paper and bring it back to my father. And well, one day we were mugged. We were mugged for our 50 cents by some older kids. And when we got back to our apartment, my mother was incensed. I mean, she was angry. She marched us back down to the bodega. We picked out these kids who had stolen our money. They run off, we run off after them. And that whole drama of chasing these kids, eventually getting our 50 cents back, it instills this mentality of do the right thing, stand up for yourself, don't let people walk over you. And these were early, early lessons that I learned and continue to stick with me today.

Nora Ali: And it sounds like you came up with a methodology to help you do the right thing or help your approach to any situation which you discovered at Cornell. You write in your book, "Looking back, I realized I had used a methodology that I would apply to a range of challenges throughout my career, which includes being very focused on the objective at hand." So walk us through that methodology.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I believe that as you begin any situation, you need to be clear on, what are you trying to accomplish? Where are you trying to go? What's that end objective? And what I found really interesting during my business career, is that whenever I would leave an organization, I'd be able to look back and see people who picked up on this mantra, where we would always begin the meeting with, what's the objective? What are we trying to do? It was actually interesting to see even some of the staff at the Nintendo headquarters in Kyoto would pick up on this, the same mentality of, "Hey, let's be really clear. What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to get done?" So that's the first step in my process, that clarity of objective. And then the second step, is really making sure that you're looking at real data and real information. People love to just pontificate and put information out there and I would be pretty ruthless in driving, okay, what is fact versus what is your belief for your assumption? And let's just be clear on what's what and to the extent possible. Let's focus on the facts and let's focus on the data and use that data to move us forward. And then the last piece I would say is once you've had discussions, you're clear on the objective, you've got the data, you make some decisions. You need to be thoughtful in going back and reviewing your results against the objective against the data and making sure you're moving forward. Because often times people can make a decision, but going back and reviewing, was it the right decision? Did it deliver on the objectives we set out? At times, folks like to skip that step, but I believe in holding ourselves accountable. Once we're going down a path, is it the right path? Are we achieving our objective? Scott Rogowsky: Many people approach college as something that they are working towards in high school, they want to get there and they get there, "Okay, I accomplished it. I got there. I'm good. I got my degree. We'll figure things out from here." It seems like with your methodologies and the way you said objectives, you had more on your mind than just going to college. What were some of those early aspirations? How did you take that degree at Cornell and apply it to those first few jobs? And you've had so many positions and you've worked for so many companies over the years, but did you have a five year plan? Did you have a one year plan? How did you focus in those early post grad years?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: Scott, I think this is a really great question. For me, when I started at Cornell, I knew I wanted to have a career in business. I knew that I wanted to run a business, but as I continued on my journey, I constantly asked, what are the areas that I have passion for? What are the areas where I think I could add value? And I wasn't afraid to change my mind, or as I talk about it in the book, explore alternative outcomes, in order to continue on my path. When I started at Cornell, within a couple years, I thought my career was going to be in banking and finance. I loved the financial space. I'd interned in banks. And I thought that was going to be my career. That I would be a banker. I would go work for a bank for a couple years, get an MBA, continue on in my journey. As a first semester senior at Cornell University, I was offered the opportunity to interview with Procter & Gamble for their prestigious Brand Management Program. And what was unique for me, was that typically these roles are offered to candidates with an MBA, with an advanced degree. And here I was being invited to interview for the same role with only an undergraduate degree. And the more I looked into it, the more I found it interesting. The more I saw that it could lead me down a path of running a business. And I was fortunate to be accepted into the program. So here I am at 22, 23 years old, working along people who are at least five, maybe eight years my senior doing exactly the same job, learning exactly the same skills, but essentially progressing in my career at a much younger age. So while that journey was still along the path of becoming a chief executive, it was a bit of a pivot from what I had thought I'd be doing in the financial industry. And it was a good thing that I made that decision, because I don't think I would've achieved everything in my career, if I hadn't started down that path with Procter & Gamble.

Nora Ali: Relatedly, Reggie, if you're in a job and you're feeling antsy or feeling unfulfilled, how do you know it's the right time to leave? What have you used in your past to tell you, "You know what, this is the right thing. I got to go"?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: For me there were two things that always came into play. First, as I looked at those other opportunities, I asked myself, "Am I going to learn something?" I asked myself, "Does the industry, or more specifically the culture of the organization, line up with what I believe in and what it is that I want to do?" And then the second thing is I always did have a small group of trusted mentors and advisors that I would ask and look to get perspective. There were times when I was given advice that I didn't take. I was advised not to take the job with Nintendo, as an example. I was advised that because of it being a Japanese company with a parent based in Kyoto, I was advised not to take the role because at the time Nintendo was struggling. And I was advised not to take the role because at the time, the video game industry was dramatically smaller than what it is today. Fortunately, I saw something different. I saw in my own personal experience and the experience of my kids, that this industry had the potential to be just so much larger. And that's come to bear. It's a $200 billion industry today. And I also saw the opportunity to bring skills and capabilities to Nintendo that I believed would help the company moving forward. And I have to be honest, I didn't exactly see the full scope of the career that I would have there, but I did see that my skills, my capabilities, my knowledge would add significant value to the organization. So you have to have the advisors to bounce ideas off of, and you need to see for yourself where you can add value and where you would fit, as you think about making those career jumps.

Scott Rogowsky: I'm seeing an opportunity for a quick break right now, but more with Reggie when we come back. Reggie, again, your resume is tremendous. And so many different types of companies, starting at Procter &Gamble, eight years there. Pizza Hut for four years. Panda Express for two years. Guinness Beers for two years. Bicycle company for two years. MTV, VH1. Nintendo is where you really made your name. But before we get into your career in video games, how about we talk about your career as a gamer yourself? And I think, if you don't mind me saying, it's your passion and love for the thing that you ultimately ended up doing that really made you most successful in that field. We know that you played Nintendo games, but just how much of a gamer were you as a kid and into your adulthood?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I played a lot of games. Starting with the earliest systems, the early Atari systems, Coleco systems. Where I started to play, if you will, the more traditional systems, was as a young adult in the early '90s with the Super Nintendo Entertainment System. My system came with Super Mario World. I completed that game with 99 lives, the most lives you could have. And I beat every single level in that game. Imagine this, I walk into my role at Nintendo and I'm talking about my experience with the Super NES. And I just happen to say that I had somewhere between 70 and 80 games. And people were shocked. And that's because on average, the average owner of the Nintendo Entertainment System, only had about seven or eight games. So I was truly a super user of the Super NES system. And I continued on my journey. I had a Nintendo 64. Sony PlayStation 2 made its way into my house. The original Xbox with its massive controller made it into my house. So I played a lot of games. I played them on my own. I played them with my family. I've got three kids. And so we were a gaming household. And I believe that background, that knowledge, was critical to my success at Nintendo. I could speak confidently about the games and the franchises. I could speak confidently about the historical strengths and weaknesses of Nintendo versus PlayStation versus the Xbox. And I think this not only worked to my advantage within the Nintendo corporate system, but it worked to my advantage with the fans. The fans could see that I loved the games, I played the games. And I could speak passionately about not only Nintendo games, but all kinds of different content.

Scott Rogowsky: And this is not very typical in the corporate world, where you have a chief executive who is truly a dyed-in-the-wool user of the product. Am I right to say that? Because I know that in the few corporate jobs I've had, I worked at Topps Baseball Cards and Bazooka Gum. And I've been a lifelong baseball card collector, loved cards, just like you with video games. So for me being there, I was in my element. I can talk about this stuff, I knew it. But a lot of my fellow employees, this was just a job for them. The higher ups, they didn't collect. It was shocking for me. I think a lot of people thinking out on the outside, when you think about a company, "Oh, every CEO is passionate and loves their product." I don't know if that's always the case.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I think you're exactly right. It is a mixed bag between folks who are there for the paycheck, who are there to do a job or to perform a role, versus people who have real passion for the industry and the business. For me, where I would be talking to Nintendo world class game creators and to be able to say that, "Yes, I played this game that I have a sense for how you think about the franchise. I have a sense for the type of content you want to play." It was just a huge, huge advantage for me. And I saw it where, there were peers of mine who didn't have that same passion. It showed up. It clearly showed up. So I think for those listening to this, I do believe you need to have a real passion for whatever industry you're in. You don't have to be a super user, Scott, like you were with baseball cards or me with video games. But you need to have a passion, I believe, in order to do your very best work.

Nora Ali: So here you find a role that taps into one of your biggest passions. And you mentioned you were advised by some people not to take role, which I imagine means doing due diligence, doing your research, was that much more important for you. And you highlighted in your book that you respectfully pushed back and asked questions during the recruitment and interview process, which I don't think a lot of people do that. You try to be friendly, you try to be amicable. Why do you think this is the best time to ask the tough questions during that interview process?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: When you are going through a recruitment process and this is true, whether this is your very first job out of university, or you're being recruited to be a chief executive, or to be a board member. There's a point in the recruitment process, where you transition from selling yourself, to the point where the organization wants you and they're selling themselves. And that is the opportunity to really ask the tough questions, because it's important to make sure that the fit is right in the role. That the fit of the culture is right. And certainly for me, as I was being recruited by Nintendo, getting to that point where I had the job offer, knowing that they were incredibly interested, but me wanting to make sure that the job was for me, was critically important. Scott highlighted my resume and I went through a patch where I had two-year stints at a range of different companies. And while I had great results, and while I could speak to the change in those two year stints, I was focused that I needed to be in a role where I could be successful for a number of years. I didn't anticipate it would be 16 years, but I needed to be confident that I would be able to make a difference to achieve goals and that's why I put myself in the position to ask some tough questions in order to make sure that the job was right.

Scott Rogowsky: I think it's time for another quick break right now, but more with Reggie when we return. So for those who are not gamers, or don't have any familiarity with the gaming world, we're talking to truly a legend. A Hall of Famer of the video game industry. I don't know if there is a Video Game Hall of Fame.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: There is. There is a Video Game Hall of Fame. I've got trophies and things behind me. So yes, I am inducted into the International Video Game Hall of Fame.

Scott Rogowsky: International Hall of Famer. I mean, truly a pinnacle of the profession. And one of those moments in your career is this speech you gave, this presentation earlier in your career in Nintendo, "My name is Reggie. I'm about kicking ass, I'm about taking names, and we're about making games." And I want to highlight this story because it segues into another discussion I want to have about culture and maybe culture clashes. When you have an American like yourself working for a Japanese company, you're talking about kicking ass, which is maybe not exactly in line with the Japanese culture. Tell us about that story and how it was received by your colleagues and what lessons you took from there.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: It's important to set the stage. So when I joined the company in 2003, Nintendo was in a difficult position. So at the time, Sony had its PlayStation 2, which was dominating the marketplace. Microsoft had entered the category with the original Xbox. At the same time, Nintendo had its GameCube hardware. And Xbox and GameCube were running neck-and-neck here in the United States, but dwarfed by PS2. Now Nintendo is about to be threatened on two fronts, the home console space and the handheld space. That was the situation I was walking into. And during my recruitment process, I had asked questions about the future, what the company was looking to do. And within weeks of my joining the company, I made a trip to the Kyoto headquarters to see the lineup of products that the company was getting ready to launch. And one of those products was a new handheld device that would become known as a Nintendo DS, which sold 150 million pieces of hardware. I was essentially seeing a prototype. And I was also seeing early video content for a game that would launch years later called The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. So while the company was being threatened from a business perspective, we had great content coming. And this is what we were going to launch at the big industry convention called E3 in May of 2004. And there was recognition that the company needed to change its messaging. That it needed to become much more aggressive in highlighting its products and highlighting its history. All of the key gaming innovations really, were first done by Nintendo, but the company really hasn't been given a lot of credit for all of these innovations, like a joystick and other controllers. So we needed to be aggressive. We needed to highlight all of this great content that was coming. And so myself and my now good friend, a gentleman by the name of Don Varyu, essentially worked to create a script and a kickoff that would capture this aggressiveness that would capture this change in momentum. And that's what led to that famous line right? "My name is Reggie. I'm about kicking ass, I'm about taking names, and we are about making games." And we needed to share this with the leadership from Japan in order to get them to buy into the proposition. And in the end, what I was able to do, was to convince leadership that this line really demonstrated our new pathway. It demonstrated our change in tone, and that we had the products to fulfill this aggressive statement. And I was fortunate, company leadership agreed. And we wrote the balance of the script and the messaging. And as they say, the rest is history. But it was really the combination of recognizing that we needed to change the messaging and we had the products to back up this much more aggressive tone.

Nora Ali: So you're clearly an expert communicator. You are an expert in messaging, such that people remember you and the phrases that you use. And we're in this era where our attention spans are getting shorter and shorter. So it's that much more important to send messages clearly. Even in your book, we were talking about this before chatting with you, uyou have the, "So What?" sections throughout the book that gives the reader the bottom line. This is the takeaway. Even if you can't read the entire book, just read the "So What?" sections. So what advice do you have for our listeners out there who are trying to grab attention and send their own messages and really cut through the clutter?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: In terms of developing your own brand, you need to really think about, what is it that you do well? You need to think about what are your own unique propositions that you can leverage moving forward in creating this brand. I'm fortunate that there are quite a few memes out there from me and my public speaking style, but I will share that not all of these were thought about in advance. That the kicking ass line, was thought about in advance. But so many of the other lines and memes that I'm known for really became big because they were consistent with who I am. They spoke to a situation or a need and so that's the other piece I would highlight for the listeners. I think you have to be careful that you don't try too hard, right? You need to be consistent. You need to be delivering a message, but I do believe that the community broadly today knows when someone's trying too hard. And I think you get penalized when you're trying too hard.

Scott Rogowsky: So having that authenticity to yourself is important. And when you think about yourself in particular in this industry, a Black man in an industry, not exactly dominated by Black men, yet you've found tremendous success. Let's talk about that diversity aspect in terms of being yourself, but not necessarily assimilating, but leaning into being different and staying true to who you are. How did you navigate that?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I think, Scott, you captured it really well. I leaned into my differences. I leaned into what I knew I brought to the situation and leveraged that to the best of my ability. Just as an example, early in my tenure at Nintendo, I asked the question, "Should I learn Japanese? Is this something I need to have in order to be effective?" And I was given really good counsel, and it was, "Reggie, it's a very hard language. You would need to spend a lot of time to master it. And, oh, by the way, we rather have you spend your time on the marketing challenges, the communication challenges, the business challenges that we have. That will distinguish you and distinguish the company much more effectively than you spending your time to learn Japanese." And so I took all of my, at the time, 20, 25 years of knowledge and perspective, and took it to the role every day. Whether it was the role as the leader within Nintendo of America, whether it was my role with the industry associations that Nintendo belonged to, whether it was with other community activities. I brought my full self, which is competitive and driven and quick to put a perspective out there and to try and drive an agenda. I took all of those elements of me into the job every day. And I didn't dwell on the fact that I was an African American leading a Japanese company. But I did dwell on, how do I make sure that all of the other people around me are bringing their full selves and all of their unique experiences into the situation to help us be a better company and to help us make better decisions? That's where I put my focus versus overly pointing at who I was and my uniquenesses per se, versus others in a similar role.

Nora Ali: Very well said. And I think we can all be optimistic that the video game industry overall is becoming more inclusive and aware that for example, female gamers are such a big portion of the revenue and a big portion of the users.

Scott Rogowsky: What I'm excited about, I hope you are too, Reggie, is a little pop quiz I'm going to throw at you here. Time for Quizness Casual: The Business Casual Quiz.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I'm very excited. I was told you were going to quiz me.

Scott Rogowsky: Yeah. Well, I've got some trivia for you here, all about the industry that you've been involved with for so long.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: I'm ready and I'm going to need a lot of help.

Scott Rogowsky: All right. We'll see. I don't know. We'll see. Okay. Qumero Numero Uno: What was the first product that Nintendo ever made?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: Oh, I know this.

Scott Rogowsky: Playing cards? Ball in a Cup?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: Hanafuda card.

Scott Rogowsky: Ping Pong Paddles, or Checkers? Ya see, you don't even need the multiple choice here. You're going with the playing cards.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: Absolutely. It is clearly Hanafuda cards. Also known as "flower cards" in Japan.

Scott Rogowsky: Ah, very nice. One-for-one. This is going to be a breeze. I have a feeling. Here we go. Q2: In 1985, Nintendo released the very first limited batch of Nintendo Entertainment Systems. Which one of the following games was available to play on NES in 1985? Duck Hunt, The Legend of Zelda, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!, or Dr. Mario?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: So I believe the answer is Duck Hunt, and I think that's the answer.

Scott Rogowsky: Going with Duck Hunt.

Nora Ali: Okay. I'm a big fan of Duck Hunt. So I support Reggie in this.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh yeah. I love that little remote with the little gun remote.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: The Zapper. I think they called it a Zapper.

Scott Rogowsky: The Zapper? There were Super Mario Brothers, Pinball, Ice Climber, and Duck Hunt among the original NES releases. Very nice. Two-for-two. This is a cake walk. Final question. What was the top selling N64 game of all time? GoldenEye, Diddy Kong Racing, Super Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: So what was interesting, Scott, is if he didn't give me the multiple choice, I actually would've guessed a different game. But from those you got to go with Mario. It's got to be Super Mario 64.

Nora Ali: That's what I would've guessed, Super Mario. What were you going to guess if not given the choices, Reggie?

Reggie Fils-Aimé: There was a Zelda game during that generation that also did exceptionally well called Ocarina of Time, which is a very top-selling game. So I would've thought maybe Ocarina, but it's got to be Super Mario. Super Mario 64.

Scott Rogowsky: Going back to the '90s with 11.8 million copies sold, Super Mario 64. Not a trick question here. Yes. Three-for-three. Ring the bells. Ring the bells. We got a winner, baby. Big time. Reggie Fils-Aime, thank you so much for your conversation. Congratulations on winning on the game. The trivia game here.

Nora Ali: Most importantly.

Scott Rogowsky: Yes. You're a gamer through-and-through.

Reggie Fils-Aimé: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Scott Rogowsky: Oh, you know what? We love hearing from our Business Casual listeners, our fam. Family, that's what that's short for. So please hit us up, cousins. Send us an email at businesscasual@morningbrew.com or DM us on Twitter, @bizcasualpod. That's B-I-Zcasualpod, with your thoughts.

Nora Ali: You can also leave us a voice memo on our website, businesscasual.fm. Or give us a ring and leave us an old-fashioned voicemail. Our number is 862-295-1135. As Business Casual grows, we are so excited to get to know our listeners, old and new. Drop us a line and don't forget to leave your name and where you're calling or writing from so we can hear from you in a future episode.

Scott Rogowsky: Business Casual's Princess is saved by Katherine Milsop and Bella Hutchins. Additional production, sound design, and mixing by Daniel Markus. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Holly Van Leuven is our fact checker. Music in this episode from Daniel Markus and The Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. If you like what you heard, please follow Business Casual on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get nasty for that casty. And we'd love it if you give us a great rating and a review.

Nora Ali: Thanks for listening to Business Casual. I'm Nora Ali.

Scott Rogowsky: And I'm Scott Rogowsky.

Nora Ali: Keep it business.

Scott Rogowsky: And keep it casual.